The true story of Michael Jackson...

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DrXparaMental
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by DrXparaMental » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:49 am

knotkranky wrote:
DrXparaMental wrote:
knotkranky wrote:I'm refering to your first post mr facts dude. Post it again then.

Right, one at a time. Name an entertainer more worthy than MJ for "the best ever" label.


...

??? my man, you have officially entered the land of lost. No clue where you are coming from.
Lets leave it at that then. I'm just trying to find some agreement but we don't have any. No worries, cheers.

@stringtapper - well put. The ironies are on so many levels.

Oh come on! You're REALLY striving here... :lol:

I am certain we agree on MANY things Knot, but I am afraid I could NEVER concede to that fact that Michael Jackson was this incredible iconic "artist" if that's what you mean by "entertainer". I really do believe that 100 - 200 years from now, he will be barely remembered if at all. Try and say that about any of the classical greats like Mozart, Brahms or Beethoven. I bet Hendrix, Chuck Berry and John Lee Hooker out live Michael 2 to 1. I would bet the Beatles with respect to pop radio air play out did Michael many times over and will be remembered MUCH longer. Jackson was never remotely close to being as influential as many artists I can think of with respect to other musicians or the progress of music's contemporary evolution.

At his very best Michael had a golden voice, could dance as well as Fred Astaire (maybe, but who could really say), was a master or choreography and made ONE of the coolest music videos of all time.

I would still REALLY enjoy knowing for certain how much of his music he actually wrote.

DrXparaMental
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by DrXparaMental » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:00 am

H20nly wrote:C'mon doc... You just dyin to argue on this thread?

A white man famous for black face.

A black man infamous for a white face...

His sister needs to leave the fuckin house and get some sunshine.




Oh and he was lying. The only thing wrong with his skin was that he hated it...
OR our theories from earlier in the thread about his being an alien are true.
/roll X-files jingle.
maybe I was just looking too deep eh? Al was doing the pathetic norm of that time with respect for "black face", but for godz sake, he could wash that crap off. Michael became this permanently. On the surface yes, the black/white reversal thing I got right off, but that's as far as the similarities go.

In this sense MJ was a complete contradiction of himself, he stated that black or white didn't matter and that he was learning to live with the man in the mirror. More like color mattered tremendously to him and he absolutely hated the man in the mirror.

stringtapper
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by stringtapper » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:05 am

DrXparaMental wrote:
stringtapper wrote: And considering the fact that Al Jolson was not unique as far as the practice of wearing blackface in vaudeville is concerned shows how Michael really was an ironic inversion of the American entertainment industry as a whole.
I don't get this. I really mean this sincerely. Could you explain what you mean here? I realize that according to Michael, he was afflicted with with some type of natural condition that resulted in involuntary pigmentation loss. Or was he? I see his sister has gotten a lot lighter too so I figured it must be genetic.
First off I'm going off the hunch that he did it to himself. If it's genetic, why did it only affect Michael and Latoya?

That said, what I meant is that it's ironic that the same industry that began with white men wearing black face in order to make fun of African-Americans is the same industry that in some way drove a black man to want to make himself white. It's a sad reflection of who we are as a nation in many ways. I think that to understand why Michael did that to himself (if you believe he did; I do) we have only to look at the racist roots of the American entertainment industry. It was common practice for white men (and women) to paint their faces black and then sing in ways that "sophisticated white people" would never sing, and act in ways that promoted prejudices against blacks (i.e. if your only contact with blacks as a kid was to see them slip on banana peels at the local vaudeville house then you grew up thinking all black people did ridiculous things like that). Yet at the same time these whites were assimilating black styles of music and dancing, always with the guise of blackface. Eventually the blackface came off, but the prejudices remained. So add the psychological effects of these prejudices to the unforgivable and psychologically damaging actions of Joe Jackson and is it really any wonder that the guy tried to become someone else? Especially because he, unlike most of us, actually had the power to do it! And the irony? That he would choose to put on a permanent "whiteface," a way to become his own false impression of the virtues of being white, or better said, to escape the specter of those induced prejudices against blacks.

For the record I'm not excusing any of his behavior. I'm just trying to frame some of the root causes of it.
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ThrowAway
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by ThrowAway » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:14 am

There not very many artists who are so universally recognized as micheal jackson, therefor he is one of the most iconic figures of music in history. ABC, Billy jean, thriller, man in the mirror, Bad have to be the most heard songs by people living at this moment. Dude sold out stadiums long after he became unpopular in the us.

ThrowAway
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by ThrowAway » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:28 am

this was taken from his wiki:



US chart records and achievements
Thriller spent a record 80 consecutive weeks, more than a year and a half, in the Top 10 of the Billboard 200. It was the first of only three albums to remain on the Top 10 for more than a year (along with Alanis Morissette's Jagged Little Pill and Celine Dion's Falling into You).
Thriller is the only album in the United States to have sold more copies than any other in two separate years, topping the sales charts in 1983 and 1984.
Four of Jackson's albums, Bad, Dangerous, HIStory, and Invincible, debuted at number one in the United States.
Jackson was the first artist to have four Top 10 singles from one album (Off the Wall).
Jackson was the first artist to have seven Top 10 singles from one album (Thriller), a feat matched only by his sister Janet and Bruce Springsteen.
Jackson was the first artist to simultaneously have the number one album and number one single on Billboard's Pop Charts and Black Charts.
Jackson was the first artist in the 1980s to have two simultaneous Top 5 hits ("Beat It" and "Billie Jean" on April 16, 1983).
Jackson is the only artist to have five number one hits from one LP, Bad ("Bad", "The Way You Make Me Feel", "Man in the Mirror", "I Just Can't Stop Loving You", and "Dirty Diana").
Jackson, Elvis Presley, and Mariah Carey are the only three artists with 2 sets of at least 5 consecutive number one hits (Jackson's first set was during the Jackson 5 Motown years).
Jackson had nine number one singles in the 1980s, more than any other artist during the decade.
Jackson was the first artist to ever have a song debut at number one on the Billboard Hot 100 ("You Are Not Alone").[1]
Jackson's album Bad remained in the top five of the Billboard 200 for 38 weeks, longer than any other album to date.
Jackson has had 13 number-one singles on Billboard's Hot 100 singles charts, trailing only The Beatles (20), Mariah Carey (18) and Elvis Presley (17).
Jackson had 37 top 40 hits on the Hot 100.

ThrowAway
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by ThrowAway » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:32 am

more from his wiki:

UK chart records and achievements
With 11.5 million copies, Michael Jackson is one of only eight musical acts that have sold more than 10 million singles in Britain.[2]
Jackson holds the record for the most Top 40 hits in the UK Singles Chart in one year, registering 19 in 2006.[2]
Jackson had 40 Top 10 hits in the UK Singles Chart.[3]
Jackson had 50 Top 40 hits in the UK Singles Chart.[3]
Jackson's Thriller and Bad' are the 8th- and 9th-highest-selling albums in UK history. Besides Jackson, only Queen, with the 1st- and 7th-best-selling albums, has multiple entries in the top twenty..[4]
Jackson had 13 songs in the UK top 40 and 5 albums (including Nr 1) in the UK top 10 on 5 July 2009.

On November 14, 1991, Michael Jackson’s music video, Black or White was broadcast simultaneously in 27 countries with an estimated audience of 500 million people. It is the largest audience ever to view a music video.

Jackson has the record for the two best-selling VHS music videos ever released ("Moonwalker" [1988] in first place, and "The Making of Michael Jackson's Thriller" [1984] in second place).
Jackson jointly holds the record for most Grammy Awards won in a single year. He won eight awards at the 1984 ceremony. This was equaled by Carlos Santana at the 2001 ceremony.
Jackson jointly holds the record for most American Music Awards won in a single year, winning eight awards at the 1984 ceremony. This was equaled by Whitney Houston at the 1994 ceremony.
Jackson jointly holds the record for the most World Music Awards won in a single year, with five awards at the 1996 ceremony (tied with Whitney Houston from the 1994 ceremony).
Jackson holds the record for winning more Billboard awards than any other male artist, having 26.
Jackson holds the record for winning more Billboard awards than any other artist in one year, grabbing 13 in 1983.
Jackson has more music awards than any other artist in the history of music.
Honored as artist of the decade by former President, George H. W. Bush in 1989 and another seven awards from others.
Named "Artist Of The Century" at the American Music Awards ceremony in 2002.
Jackson's "Bad World Tour" (1987–1989) was the highest-grossing tour ever at the time, with over $125 million earned. This record was later broken by the "Dangerous World Tour" (1992-1993) and later broken again by the "HIStory World Tour" (1996-1997), which is still the biggest tour ever in terms of international attendance (4.4 million tickets outside of USA).
Michael Jackson is the only foreign artist to have sold more than 1,500,000 units in Turkey with all his albums (Off The Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous, HIStory, Blood On The Dance Floor and Invincible). Bad is the best-selling foreign album in Turkey with the sales of 560,000 units. HIStory is the best-selling double album by a foreign artist in Turkey with more than 145,000 units sold.
Jackson's album "Thriller" (1982) is the best selling album of all time with more than 104 million copies.
The fastest ticket sales in history, with 700,000 tickets sold in about four hours for the cancelled "This Is It" concert series]] in 2009.

Sibanger
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by Sibanger » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:00 am

DrXparaMental wrote:
Sibanger, you have the winning edge. I concede. Incidentally, I am NOT a real Doctor. Not in the least.
8O No way!
DrXparaMental wrote:Your opinion is EVERY bit as valid as mine. I just believe it to be foolish to practice reserve when it comes to abstract opinion and social interpretations in an OT thread. I come from that "let it all hang out" school of being "real". I'm as subject to being perceived as mentally ill and/or foolish as the next guy.

There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who let it out, and those who keep it all in. Guess who have the nasty headaches and ulcers?
I wouldn't be so quick to judge me and put me into a box. The above statement (There are two kinds of people in this world.....) is fairly lame.

I have enjoyed your posts on this forum Dr.(Can I still call you that?)

DrXparaMental
Posts: 950
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by DrXparaMental » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:48 am

First off I'm going off the hunch that he did it to himself. If it's genetic, why did it only affect Michael and Latoya?

That said, what I meant is that it's ironic that the same industry that began with white men wearing black face in order to make fun of African-Americans is the same industry that in some way drove a black man to want to make himself white. It's a sad reflection of who we are as a nation in many ways. I think that to understand why Michael did that to himself (if you believe he did; I do) we have only to look at the racist roots of the American entertainment industry. It was common practice for white men (and women) to paint their faces black and then sing in ways that "sophisticated white people" would never sing, and act in ways that promoted prejudices against blacks (i.e. if your only contact with blacks as a kid was to see them slip on banana peels at the local vaudeville house then you grew up thinking all black people did ridiculous things like that). Yet at the same time these whites were assimilating black styles of music and dancing, always with the guise of blackface. Eventually the blackface came off, but the prejudices remained. So add the psychological effects of these prejudices to the unforgivable and psychologically damaging actions of Joe Jackson and is it really any wonder that the guy tried to become someone else? Especially because he, unlike most of us, actually had the power to do it! And the irony? That he would choose to put on a permanent "whiteface," a way to become his own false impression of the virtues of being white, or better said, to escape the specter of those induced prejudices against blacks.

For the record I'm not excusing any of his behavior. I'm just trying to frame some of the root causes of it.
I believe what MJ had was called Vitiligo. It causes light patches/blotches visible on the skin's surface. It seems his plastic surgery in combination with skin treatments to remove or damage the pigment of his skin, which was his choice response to the Vitiligo condition, left him looking like more so the victim of a severe burn and subsequent cosmetic surgery restoration gone terribly wrong. All the surface level changes to Michael were indeed his choice and speak of an immensely disturbed ego. Psychologically I believe you to be "right on the money"

Stringtapper, you are without question one of the most brilliant people I have ever discussed much of everything with on the net. You have a clarity that IMO is the epitome of balance with respect to reserve and expression.

Yes, you are so correct with respect to race based psychological transposition. A perfect example would be the amazing Dennis Rodman. Remember him? How about the entirety of the suburban white kid/inner city black gangster emulation? (styles from prison)

To give everyone a point blank understanding of the devastating power of transposition in a non society observed condition, transposition is the extremely real psychological mechanics behind what is literally one of, if not thee most painful of experiences, that a human being can have. That being the hole you feel in you self that the winds of emptiness blow through when you go through the heartbreak of a relationship termination. What you are really going through is the extremely painful recovery of your own transposed ego. This can be legitimately likened to an immensely deranged form of addiction or more accurately, dependence.
Last edited by DrXparaMental on Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

monobeach
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by monobeach » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:07 pm

DrX, I know you don't care for first hand experience, but since you asked for MJ's songwriting capabilities, have a look here:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much- ... ut-mj.html

cheers,

m

DrXparaMental
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by DrXparaMental » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:16 pm

ThrowAway wrote:There not very many artists who are so universally recognized as micheal jackson, therefor he is one of the most iconic figures of music in history. ABC, Billy jean, thriller, man in the mirror, Bad have to be the most heard songs by people living at this moment. Dude sold out stadiums long after he became unpopular in the us.
Throwaway, your facts are appreciated and you are correct (of course). In these very specific and undeniable ways, one could consider MJ one of, if not thee most successful entertainers of all time.

Of course one could argue that what you are putting across here is more attributable to mass marketing and the corporate harvest of MJ's fan base on a global level, but that doesn't dilute or negate your point in the least.

My own short coming with respect to the consideration was that I was equating "successful" with "uniquely important artistry". I have a way of negating main stream monetary related success because of my subversive nature. Money and spontaneous popularity would honestly be in dead last with respect for my considerations of what is artistic success. And of course, there I go again, we aren't talking "artistic success", we are talking "most successful entertainer".

From cradle to grave, there is no question that MJ was an "immense commercial entertainment success" Sadly, from what I can tell from his own public admissions, this being where MJ CHOSE to live his life, that was pretty much the sum total of his personal success.

I guess, just between you and I, (and million others) it kind of pisses me off that people are so out of touch with the real nature of what is the priceless nature of unique human expressed art, that they would so relish such commercial bullshit. Just a little angst there. MY bad.

DrXparaMental
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by DrXparaMental » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:18 pm

monobeach wrote:DrX, I know you don't care for first hand experience, but since you asked for MJ's songwriting capabilities, have a look here:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much- ... ut-mj.html

cheers,

m
dude...low, but thanks for the link. I will check it out later.
Last edited by DrXparaMental on Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DrXparaMental
Posts: 950
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by DrXparaMental » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:23 pm

Sibanger wrote:
DrXparaMental wrote:
Sibanger, you have the winning edge. I concede. Incidentally, I am NOT a real Doctor. Not in the least.
8O No way!
DrXparaMental wrote:Your opinion is EVERY bit as valid as mine. I just believe it to be foolish to practice reserve when it comes to abstract opinion and social interpretations in an OT thread. I come from that "let it all hang out" school of being "real". I'm as subject to being perceived as mentally ill and/or foolish as the next guy.

There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who let it out, and those who keep it all in. Guess who have the nasty headaches and ulcers?
I wouldn't be so quick to judge me and put me into a box. The above statement (There are two kinds of people in this world.....) is fairly lame.

I have enjoyed your posts on this forum Dr.(Can I still call you that?)

Call me anything you like my man. DrXparaMental is best explained on the Myspace page link. BTW, In NO WAY was I framing you in as one of the two "types" Sibanger, that was just a little tongue in cheek personal justification for my overtly verbose and annoying posted nature. I often have too much to say as most people will attest. I just don't believe in holding back and frankly, I believe that's a healthy and natural route to take with respect to forum expression.

peace,
me

stringtapper
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by stringtapper » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:00 pm

DrXparaMental wrote:I believe what MJ had was called Vitiligo. It causes light patches/blotches visible on the skin's surface. It seems his plastic surgery in combination with skin treatments to remove or damage the pigment of his skin, which was his choice response to the Vitiligo condition, left him looking like more so the victim of a severe burn and subsequent cosmetic surgery restoration gone terribly wrong. All the surface level changes to Michael were indeed his choice and speak of an immensely disturbed ego. Psychologically I believe you to be "right on the money"
I guess I'm too rigid in my opinion of his changing skin color. Of course it makes sense that as an entertainer who relies on his looks, that if this condition did in fact exist, that he would need to do something about it. I've never seen a black person where it affected their entire body, so it makes sense that he would have to either find a way to turn the white "sploches" black again or just take the pigment out of it all so it would match. Who knows?

DrXparaMental wrote:Stringtapper, you are without question one of the most brilliant people I have ever discussed much of everything with on the net. You have a clarity that IMO is the epitome of balance with respect to reserve and expression.
Gee thanks :oops:

Now if I could just get my thesis finished... :x

DrXparaMental wrote:Yes, you are so correct with respect to race based psychological transposition. A perfect example would be the amazing Dennis Rodman. Remember him? How about the entirety of the suburban white kid/inner city black gangster emulation? (styles from prison)

To give everyone a point blank understanding of the devastating power of transposition in a non society observed condition, transposition is the extremely real psychological mechanics behind what is literally one of, if not thee most painful of experiences, that a human being can have. That being the hole you feel in you self that the winds of emptiness blow through when you go through the heartbreak of a relationship termination. What you are really going through is the extremely painful recovery of your own transposed ego. This can be legitimately likened to an immensely deranged form of addiction or more accurately, dependence.
I dig the way these musical terms like "transposition" and "inversion" are creeping their way into this discussion. :)

I think any balanced evaluation of Michael would contend that he was an immense talent and inspiration, and at the same time a tremendously flawed and troubled man. I believe history will judge him by the aspects of his life that he could not control as well as the choices that he could have made differently.

Comparing the man himself to what he produced reveals a mix of joy and sadness. But for how many countless artists would this not be the case? Beethoven (and no, I'm not comparing what they produced, trust me) was a troubled soul, a drunk, at times a hateful curmudgeon, a man you would probably not want your children around either. But when we listen to that uplifting blend of chorus with orchestra in the fourth movement of the 9th, we don't see any of that. We see the man as we would like to see him, the pure artist charging through the threshold of creative experience. The same will go for MJ, albeit on a much less sophisticated (and I would argue, much less significant) level as that of Beethoven, to be sure.
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ThrowAway
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by ThrowAway » Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:37 am

Every genius artist in history has been seriously fucked up....mozart,pollack,hendrix,van gogh, etc etc. Not that I would put mj up there but he is pretty close imo.

Vitiligo is pretty common. Out of the estimated 500 black people I come into contact with every month I see at least one with it. A guy at the local sandwhich shop I go to has it. When I went to highschool in a predominatly black area of orlando there was 6-10 out of 1500 at my school that had it. I know this is not scientific at all but I don't find it hard to believe he had it because of my personal experiance.

b0unce
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Re: The true story of Michael Jackson...

Post by b0unce » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:37 am

Quincy Jones



/thread
spreader of butter

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