Dither Options

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
funky shit
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Dither Options

Post by funky shit » Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:33 pm

Sup folks?

What dithering option do you all use... ive been reading a bit about it and a tad confused :lol:
What id the best POW setting to use for electronic music? is it POW-2?
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sigabort
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Re: Dither Options

Post by sigabort » Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:40 pm

i always use triangular dither - always seems to do good for me - haven't tried all the other options tho so can't really compare...

synnack
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Re: Dither Options

Post by synnack » Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:57 pm

I do everything in my sets at 44.1/16k so there is no need for dithering.
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re.mark
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Re: Dither Options

Post by re.mark » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:37 pm

I export Mixdowns at 32bit, and then Master as 16 pow-2

funky shit
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Re: Dither Options

Post by funky shit » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:39 pm

re.mark wrote:I export Mixdowns at 32bit, and then Master as 16 pow-2
nice. But can the human ear hear the different between 24 and 32 bit?
are you not just taking up a load of space?
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re.mark
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Re: Dither Options

Post by re.mark » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:43 pm

Im not too sure to be honest, just like to export at the highest possible. Mere personal preference.

ethios4
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Re: Dither Options

Post by ethios4 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:54 pm

I use PowR-1 for quiet material like solo acoustic guitar, ambient, voice.
I use PowR-3 for loud material like electronic dance, rock/metal, or any mixes that have been strongly limited.
I use PowR-2 for things in between.

funky shit
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Re: Dither Options

Post by funky shit » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:57 pm

ethios4 wrote:I use PowR-1 for quiet material like solo acoustic guitar, ambient, voice.
I use PowR-3 for loud material like electronic dance, rock/metal, or any mixes that have been strongly limited.
I use PowR-2 for things in between.
users on here seem quite experienced so ill take your word for it.
going to test POWR-3.
experiment.. :wink:
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ethios4
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Re: Dither Options

Post by ethios4 » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:01 pm

I got my info from reading the manual, p. 47...
Ableton wrote: Dither Options - If you are rendering at a bit depth lower than 32-bit, choose one
of the dither modes. Dithering adds a small amount of noise to rendered audio, but
minimizes artifacts when reducing the bit depth. By default, Triangular is selected,
which is the safest mode to use if there is any possibility of doing additional processing
on your le. Rectangular mode introduces an even smaller amount of dither
noise, but at the expense of additional quantization error. The three Pow-r modes
offer successively higher amounts of dithering, but with the noise pushed above the
audible range. Note that dithering is a procedure that should only be applied once
to any given audio le. If you plan to do further processing on your rendered le, it’s
best to render to 32-bit to avoid the need for dithering at this stage. In particular, the
Pow-r modes should never be used for any material
Perhaps I don't need to go as high as Pow-r 3 for everything loud...

claytonsquire
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Re: Dither Options

Post by claytonsquire » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:41 pm

While I'll admit that I may not have the best mastering ears in the world, I do think they're pretty decent. That said, I just did 3 exports of a track I just mastered with the 3 POW-r settings. The track is a house remix and has some pretty heavy compression and limiting on it. The differences between the dithering types are EXTREMELY minimal. What stuck out the most to me was a slight shift in the stereo field between the 3 bounces. I found, in this particular instance, that POW-r 3 retained the best stereo image and while there was maybe a tad more presence in the 16-18 kHz range, it wasn't enough to be offensive. As previously stated, try bounces of all 3 (or 5 if you include triangular and rectangular) options, turn on that exclusive solo mode, and check between them.

Tarekith
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Re: Dither Options

Post by Tarekith » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:45 am

This was posted on gearslutz, thought it was pretty funny:

Quoted from Logic manual:

"POW-r offers three distinct dithering modes.
• No Dithering: No dithering is applied.
• POW-r #1: uses a special dithering curve to minimize quantization noise.
• POW-r #2: (Noise Shaping): uses additional noise shaping over a wide frequency
range, which can extend the dynamic range by 5 to 10 dB.
• POW-r #3: (Noise Shaping): uses additional, optimized noise shaping which can
extend the dynamic range by 20 dB within the 2 to 4 kHz range—the range the
human ear is most sensitive to."



ProTools manual:

"The POW-r Dither plug-in provides three types
of noise shaping, each with its own characteris-
tics. Try each noise shaping type and choose the
one that adds the least amount of coloration to
the audio being processed.

Type 1 Has the flattest frequency spectrum in
the audible range of frequencies, modulating
and accumulating the dither noise just below
the Nyquist frequency. Recommended for less
stereophonically complex material such as solo
instrument recordings.

Type 2 Has a psychoacoustically optimized low
order noise shaping curve. Recommended for
material of greater stereophonic complexity.

Type 3 Has a psychoacoustically optimized high
order noise shaping curve. Recommended for
full-spectrum, wide-stereo field material."



Sonikmatter (from some old logic manual maybe?):

"POW-r #1 is optimized for low dynamic range program, such as highly
compressed pop music
POW-r #2 is optimized for less complex program, such as spoken word
POW-r #3 is optimized for complex, high dynamic range program, such
as orchestral performance"



Wikipedia:

"POW-R #1: optimized for simple program of average dynamic range, such as spoken word.
POW-R #2: optimized for low dynamic range program, such as rock music.
POW-R #3: optimized for complex, high dynamic range program, such as orchestral music."

UKRuss
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Re: Dither Options

Post by UKRuss » Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:42 pm

Many different interpretations. :lol:

I always prefer type 2 on my music, I chose that by rendering 3 versioj using the 3 pow-r noise shaping dither types and asking some listeners. general consensus that drums seemed better defined with type 2...but frankly I couldnt hear much difference myself...

Komponist-Kalle
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Re: Dither Options

Post by Komponist-Kalle » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:17 pm

Also worth mentioning is that you should avoid dithering more than once. If you'll send the material to a professional mastering house or plan to master yourself (as a separate step) it's best to avoid dithering before the final conversion.

Tarekith
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Re: Dither Options

Post by Tarekith » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:28 pm

Type 2 for me as well most of the time. I'm not surprised people can't hear the difference, we're talking about a signal that's EXTREMELY quiet compared to the audio it's embedded in. Honestly I think people worry about dither way too much. It's a useful tool, but it's also probably the least significant part of the production process. People think it has a much great audible effect than it really does.

I'd be really surprised if 99.99% of people could hear a difference between a track with and without dither, unless they were playing something like crash cymbal or reverb tails at super high volumes in a super quiet studio.

sporkles
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Re: Dither Options

Post by sporkles » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:17 pm

Tarekith wrote: I'd be really surprised if 99.99% of people could hear a difference between a track with and without dither, unless they were playing something like crash cymbal or reverb tails at super high volumes in a super quiet studio.
3phase = .01 percent.

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