Lives sound engine argument again ...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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jamos
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Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by jamos » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:55 am

So I was hanging out with a bunch of producers the other week and out of 7 guys only myself and another guy were using live to do everything, another guy was rewireing ableton into cubase,

The general consensus of the room was that Lives sound engine was in some way inferior, I tried to argue but had no real ammo. Im pretty sure this is just something people say when they cant be bothered to learn how to use Live but its soemthing I here time and time again.

Basically is there any proof that live is somehow inferior to other products sound wise, personally I cant here any difference between a sample in Live and Cubase so I just want to start crushing these haters with some undeniable data. If anyone could point be in the right direction or give me some witty comments I can fire at these fools then please post.

D K
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by D K » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:07 am

get some beers, invite them over for a blind test.
let the ears decide...
post your results here.

h4nc0
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by h4nc0 » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:09 am

perhaps because Live warps audio automatically when imported?

SubFunk
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by SubFunk » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:14 am

Yeah it can be warping, which in most cases sounds like poo.

Instead of getting together with serato on good time stretch logas (pitch 'n' time) they waste there time on new DJ products.
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4.33
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by 4.33 » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:16 am

h4nc0 wrote:perhaps because Live warps audio automatically when imported?
no, it doesn't do anything to your sample unless you alter the tempo. it just places warp markers.

+1 for the blind test
bollocks

jamos
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by jamos » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:20 am

Of course, i suspect they are draggin a loop into live and it sounds shit due to auto warping set to Beat quality and then jsut write it off as a bad sounding engine, maybe there should be a one time warning when u first drop a sample in or soemthing ??? I mean accoroding to my survey of seven people they have all done exactly the above.

SubFunk
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by SubFunk » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:24 am

Actually funny i also talked to a guy yesterday who claimed the same... He was like: i bought maschine because of lives shit sound engine... :roll:
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UKRuss
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by UKRuss » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:39 am

No. Just no. Not again. For gods sake stop the thread.

kb420
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by kb420 » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:46 am

SubFunk wrote:Actually funny i also talked to a guy yesterday who claimed the same... He was like: i bought maschine because of lives shit sound engine... :roll:

If someone thinks that Live's engine sounds like crap, let them.
H20nly wrote:fuck Bitwig.

8O
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by 8O » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:46 am

SubFunk wrote:Actually funny i also talked to a guy yesterday who claimed the same... He was like: i bought maschine because of lives shit sound engine... :roll:
If that was me, I was drunk at the time, ok? :wink:
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SubFunk
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by SubFunk » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:57 am

8O wrote:
SubFunk wrote:Actually funny i also talked to a guy yesterday who claimed the same... He was like: i bought maschine because of lives shit sound engine... :roll:
If that was me, I was drunk at the time, ok? :wink:
LOL
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SubFunk
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by SubFunk » Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:59 am

kb420 wrote:
SubFunk wrote:Actually funny i also talked to a guy yesterday who claimed the same... He was like: i bought maschine because of lives shit sound engine... :roll:

If someone thinks that Live's engine sounds like crap, let them.
of course.
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slirak
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by slirak » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:25 pm

Live's mixing was 32 bit integer prior to L7 as I recall it, while some other DAW's already sported 64 bit summing or 32 bit floating point (allows for less rounding errors when you process audio). And then there's the lack of high end dithering algorithms for audio export (was there any at all before L7?).

That still wasn't shit and when it comes to dithering, you should only apply that once, so unless you master in Live, it's a moot question.

So maybe that's where rumours like this come from - some minor deficiencies prior to L7?

Like shit? My ass... :P

3phase
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by 3phase » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:36 pm

you cant bend the truth... Live has a much better audio quaility now than it had a few years ago..
And with 96 k i started to live with it...
But its actually a good question to find out where we actually are now...
Just by instinct i would think that Ableton still hasent reached the level of the other DAW´s..
But that might be wrong...


Problem is that Ableton bended the truth for promotional reasons in the past.
And the studio scene is pretty unforgiving regarding such things.
So even when live is better now they will keep the name as beeing inferrior for quite a while.


Doing this phase canceling tests and claiming the results as propper in public was bad, because without propper measuring eqipment such things cant be prooved...
Ableton never published any professional measuring results.. probably not becaue they havent done any..


Artefacts well below any listening border effect a sound...
And checking single files anyway dont prooves anything.

What happens when files get mixed? and when a fade is applied?
That is actually what happens in a DAW..
You cant claim to be as good as any other daw when you cant mix 2 or more faded files without killing the sound...
That is just what DAW´s are supposed to do all the time.

Anyboddy realized that since Live 6 or 7 there are dithering options for the rendering?
Do you know for how many years pro DAW´s considerd dithering as important now? At least over 10 years since logic included it.
So the former perfect DAW Live got a lot more perfect now...

And probably it can get even more perfect...
If other DAW´s are allready? check them out and do what your ears tell you ...
I would say cubase is the refference in the moment .
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

SubFunk
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Re: Lives sound engine argument again ...

Post by SubFunk » Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:40 pm

yeah, older versions, we can argue.. but we talking now, no?
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