it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live

will you upgrade again knowing you'll be buying a buggy product?

nope
59
60%
yeah that sounds like fun
39
40%
 
Total votes: 98

R.A.W.
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by R.A.W. » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:04 pm

to chime in here: i got stability problems with live 8 as i wrote 2 pages back, but i didn't complain about them yet as i got random crashes and can't figure out what causes them.. so in this case even contacting the support wouldn't help really.
all i can say is that live 7 runs solid on the same machine, that only leaves the conclusion that live 8 isn't as stable as the latest versions of 7 yet, at least for me.
and i know my way around when it comes to computers as i work in the IT business for over 10 years now... i tried many tweaks but still got issues. so for me its basically waiting for an update that doesn't crash on me.

so in the end it's not wrong system settings or faulty hardware, the recent version of live 8 is really not as usable as earlier versions for me, but i know there are many people (like my bandmate) that got no problems. lucky them!
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hoffman2k
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by hoffman2k » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:17 pm

R.A.W. wrote:to chime in here: i got stability problems with live 8 as i wrote 2 pages back, but i didn't complain about them yet as i got random crashes and can't figure out what causes them.. so in this case even contacting the support wouldn't help really.
I know this isn't everybody's favorite answer, but if you would download one of these beta versions and are adventurous enough to work as you usually do.. When these random crashes happen, you get a crash pack to send to Ableton.
That allows them to actually play back what you did and see exactly where Live crashed and the crashlog will probably tell them why.

They've spent years fine-tuning this crash reporting system, that in most cases they wouldn't even need much details. The crash pack has more info then you could type.
Stuff like this isn't really counted as improvements like adding group track.
The numbers are on my side in this argument. Because I've confirmed almost as much bugs as I reported.
Speaking of which, I was just gonna practice what I preach by bumping my outstanding crashes. Turns out I can confirm a fix or user error instead.

DrXparaMental
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by DrXparaMental » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:46 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
R.A.W. wrote:to chime in here: i got stability problems with live 8 as i wrote 2 pages back, but i didn't complain about them yet as i got random crashes and can't figure out what causes them.. so in this case even contacting the support wouldn't help really.
I know this isn't everybody's favorite answer, but if you would download one of these beta versions and are adventurous enough to work as you usually do.. When these random crashes happen, you get a crash pack to send to Ableton.
That allows them to actually play back what you did and see exactly where Live crashed and the crashlog will probably tell them why.

They've spent years fine-tuning this crash reporting system, that in most cases they wouldn't even need much details. The crash pack has more info then you could type.
Stuff like this isn't really counted as improvements like adding group track.
The numbers are on my side in this argument. Because I've confirmed almost as much bugs as I reported.
Speaking of which, I was just gonna practice what I preach by bumping my outstanding crashes. Turns out I can confirm a fix or user error instead.
This is such great advise hoffman2k. I just read the whole thread from start to finish and it is a bit sad about some of the "regulars" having crash issues. If the Internet has done anything, it's sure given us all a chance to vent eh?

I don't know what to say. The Ableton support people have helped me through every issue I had. Better than 80% of the time, my problems were due to me. Not intentional or stupid shit either. Stuff like minuscule default settings in my bios. Just little tiny pimples of problems that I perceived and made out to be like a flaming boil on my ass. Crashes MANY times are the results of plugin companies not keeping up. Everybody bitches about the "other guy".

If you made the CHOICE to upgrade to 8, don't you think you have an obligation to YOURSELF to follow through and solve your own problems with the help that's a available to you?

Maybe it's easier for guys that are like me. The lead in post made by McQ714 is almost exactly parallel with myself. I am just a hobbyist, BUT, I take my hobby VERY seriously. That's because it reflects a deep and more so true level of passion within my life. I built my computer from the ground up for Live. For nothing but my music. I still had some problems with 8, but with my determination and Ableton's will to help, ALL GONE.

This talk of waiting for stable versions is kind of humorous. We all want the "best" and most cutting edge hard and software imaginable, but we want it perfect. Without any flaws. Plug n play. THAT'S NOT REALITY!!!!!

I do cars for a living. The following two gentlemen both use their cars to make a living. The first is the guy that just uses his to get to his profession. The second is a sales rep that uses his frequently to entertain and impress clients. First, in comes the guy with his 1998 Taurus 3.0 OHV that he maintains religiously. He's Joe routine and his vehicle runs like the day he bought it new. Next, in comes the guy that annually pre orders a new ZR1 Vette 3 weeks after he takes delivery of this year's model. His most recent auto acquisition is compared in terms of acceleration performance to that of an F/A 18 Hornet fighter jet. Who do you think encounters the most automobile related disruption and disappointment? It's the Vette guy of course because he's bought the best (most expensive), extreme cutting edge performance product. I mean for his money, Lockheed better have been testing that damn Vette for 10 years prior to this model years release. Right?

It usually takes an automobile manufacture 3-5 years to get the big bugs out. Roughly 8 years to have a product that is not warranty repair prone.

Sometimes we need to back up to get a real grip on the size of the issues we are dealing with. I wonder if any of us, Ableton included, can honestly imagine the variables involved in something as complex as their software?

In a car, you get behind the wheel, put your key in the ignition, and drive to and fro. In a soft sequencer/daw like Live, you turn on your computer, you sit down, and what happens next is an immeasurable number of variables with respect to usage and application.

Vibrations
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by Vibrations » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:00 pm

Tone Deft wrote: they don't communicate well? FFS name another DAW that does it better, or even just another software compnay. examples or stfu gtfo. :P
Reaper?

R.A.W.
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by R.A.W. » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:38 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
R.A.W. wrote:to chime in here: i got stability problems with live 8 as i wrote 2 pages back, but i didn't complain about them yet as i got random crashes and can't figure out what causes them.. so in this case even contacting the support wouldn't help really.
I know this isn't everybody's favorite answer, but if you would download one of these beta versions and are adventurous enough to work as you usually do.. When these random crashes happen, you get a crash pack to send to Ableton.
does that also work with crashes that end up in a bsod? my crashes are bad in most cases.
tbh i don't even dare to really work with 8.0.4, but perhaps it's worth to try the 8.0.5 betas.
ThinkPad T500,Core 2 Duo T9600 (2x2,8GHz)/3GB RAM/Radeon HD3650/FireWire 410/WinXP SP3 32bit
AMD Phenom II X4 3.2GHz/4GB RAM/GeForce GTX460/ESI U24 XL/Win7 x64
Ableton Live 8/energyXT2/APC40/MPKmini/LaunchPad/TriggerFinger
http://www.bitmud.com

ethios4
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by ethios4 » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:48 pm

Good to know re: the beta crash logs.

Johnisfaster
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by Johnisfaster » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:05 am

poster wrote:
Johnisfaster wrote:this is just an endless cycle of buying the new release that is buggy as shit and then suffering with it for months on end until it's finally stable a few months before the new version is released, every year it's the same damn story. next year I don't upgrade till there is a decent stable version out I don't care if I have to wait 8 months after release to get it, they don't get my money till they make it work right PERIOD!
since you obviously have the same experience for some years now, did you try the 14 days free demo license this year?..
I shouldn't have to demo something to find out how buggy it is, I figure a software that costs an arm and a fuc**ng leg should be VERY VERY solid when it's released. And I'll admit that I always dive right in cause I'm always really excited about the new features but at this point I've experienced bad bugs with first releases since version 5 when I bought in, then 6 came out and it was the same story, then 7, then 8, I've learned the lesson finally that ableton isn't reliable enough to make the software work on release and I'm tired of dealing with it. Next time it doesn't matter what features they add I'll be waiting a minimum of 6 months before I upgrade.
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.

Machinesworking
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by Machinesworking » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:57 am

Johnisfaster wrote: I shouldn't have to demo something to find out how buggy it is, I figure a software that costs an arm and a fuc**ng leg should be VERY VERY solid when it's released.
good luck with that. I've used quite a few DAWs and they all have problems out the door, too many variables. They try, but reality is they have to keep up with the Jones's (Logic, Cubase, DP, Sonar etc.), and pay their bills. Reason is the only 100% stabel software out there, but Reason can't record, or host VSTs etc. so of course it's stable.

One thing this thread has made me think about is downloading the demo, and checking it out before jumping in. Like I said I run a lot of third party stuff, and it's all fine in 7.1.6, so... besides I'm using my change jar to buy the upgrade, and I've got a ways to go. :?

Tone Deft
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:24 am

Johnisfaster wrote:
poster wrote:
Johnisfaster wrote:this is just an endless cycle of buying the new release that is buggy as shit and then suffering with it for months on end until it's finally stable a few months before the new version is released, every year it's the same damn story. next year I don't upgrade till there is a decent stable version out I don't care if I have to wait 8 months after release to get it, they don't get my money till they make it work right PERIOD!
since you obviously have the same experience for some years now, did you try the 14 days free demo license this year?..
I shouldn't have to demo something to find out how buggy it is, I figure a software that costs an arm and a fuc**ng leg should be VERY VERY solid when it's released. And I'll admit that I always dive right in cause I'm always really excited about the new features but at this point I've experienced bad bugs with first releases since version 5 when I bought in, then 6 came out and it was the same story, then 7, then 8, I've learned the lesson finally that ableton isn't reliable enough to make the software work on release and I'm tired of dealing with it. Next time it doesn't matter what features they add I'll be waiting a minimum of 6 months before I upgrade.
go back to using hardware only. your dreams of software stability are the stuff purple unicorns are made of. sorry you're not having good luck, clearly your music habit is near and dear to you.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by 1.6180339887 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:29 am

Johnisslow wrote: I shouldn't have to demo something to find out how buggy it is, I figure a software that costs an arm and a fuc**ng leg should be VERY VERY solid when it's released. And I'll admit that I always dive right in cause I'm always really excited about the new features but at this point I've experienced bad bugs with first releases since version 5 when I bought in, then 6 came out and it was the same story, then 7, then 8, I've learned the lesson finally that ableton isn't reliable enough to make the software work on release and I'm tired of dealing with it. Next time it doesn't matter what features they add I'll be waiting a minimum of 6 months before I upgrade.
You must like your anus char grilled otherwise why keep buttering your ass cheeks before sitting on the coal pit ?
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Johnisfaster
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by Johnisfaster » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:54 am

Tone Deft wrote: go back to using hardware only. your dreams of software stability are the stuff purple unicorns are made of. sorry you're not having good luck, clearly your music habit is near and dear to you.
I do use a lot more hardware now than I used to, I wonder if some inspiration for all that gear buying was in-satisfaction over the software worlds stability? don't know.

actually I came to realize that all of my live bugs currently have to do with the apc-40 which wasn't even around when live 8 came out. I updated recently to 8.0.4 and still have one particular bug that I can reproduce at will which is really has been the straw that broke the camels jaw bone.

Seems ridiculous to me but the pan/send knobs on the apc40 make my cpu spike like crazy and cause clicks in the audio every time they are pushed. And this isn't a weakling machine either it's a core2quad with 3gigs of ram it should be able to handle a simple midi controller but obviously selecting pan/sends without audio distortion is just too much to ask.

sorry I just like to vent I guess.. it's really frustrating..
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.

Tone Deft
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:00 am

I'd simplify your midi ports as much as possible. turn everything off except for the APC stuff, and only the IN settings, turn off the OUT settings. it could very well be a midi feedback loop. if that works slowly add the ports until it breaks or you're back up to speed.

human interface stuff like the APC are slow and they can miss small amounts of data or be bursty, unlike audio which has to be smooth and can't skip data. the APC might be cool and new and all but it's just a dumb button box.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by 1.6180339887 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:34 am

Image
a+b is to a as a is to b

Johnisfaster
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by Johnisfaster » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:01 am

Tone Deft wrote:it could very well be a midi feedback loop.
yeah I initially suspected a feedback loop so I turned all my midi devices off and still if I pushed a send or pan button on the apc40 I could hear audio cut out for just a millisecond resulting it a audible click and I could see the cpu meter spike a little. so I did the cpu tone test and put it at 50% and pushed the pan/send buttons and could hear the test tone clicking. I finally figured out though that if I make my audio buffer either extremely long OR extremely short I can get rid of this problem entirely. I opted to use an extremely low audio buffer (4ms) as I do record hardware and a really long audio buffer can be a pain in the ass. The weird thing is is that an audio buffer that is just kinda in the middle (anything above 500 samples) and the problem is there again. I find that odd but I'm willing to live with it the way it is for now.

I'm sure you understand that a few hundred audible clicks and a crash or 2 can make anyone get their panties in a bunch. :)
It was as if someone shook up a 6 foot can of blood soda and suddenly popped the top.

hoffman2k
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Re: it's official, next year I don't upgrade till it's stable

Post by hoffman2k » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:54 am

R.A.W. wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:
R.A.W. wrote:to chime in here: i got stability problems with live 8 as i wrote 2 pages back, but i didn't complain about them yet as i got random crashes and can't figure out what causes them.. so in this case even contacting the support wouldn't help really.
I know this isn't everybody's favorite answer, but if you would download one of these beta versions and are adventurous enough to work as you usually do.. When these random crashes happen, you get a crash pack to send to Ableton.
does that also work with crashes that end up in a bsod? my crashes are bad in most cases.
tbh i don't even dare to really work with 8.0.4, but perhaps it's worth to try the 8.0.5 betas.
The crashlog is something that is generated when you load Live after a crash. 4 out of 5 times you will get a crash pack to send to Ableton.
The difference between 8.0.4 and 8.0.5 is like night and day.

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