Fuck Kennedy is Gone

[Machinesworking]

Pretty much agreed right down the middle. I too am MOST angry at the enabling. That's always the biggest problem. It's the enticement.

These people are the ones cutting corners IMO, you force labor prices down, and don't pay taxes on the workers, or pay less etc., then you're far worse. You're doing it to make a better profit, not to get out of poverty like illegals are.

But I swear that sometimes the apathy is even worse. That's the ultimate enabler.

and what do you mean by that? that the illegals are not doing it right, that they have other avenues? It's as easy to assume they might not, considering how corrupt south american governements are in general.

Sure, I most certainly resent paying taxes that those bozos who profit here don't. Only a jellyfish wouldn't.

OK then take it further, doesn't it bother you even more that 99% of the people making over 400k a year aren't paying as much taxes as you do? Let's face it, you get ot a certain level in the US and you have elaborate in intricate ways of making it look like your businesses are all working at a loss to expand etc., and you pay zilch in taxes, nada. This is far worse of a problem IMO than some mexican dude mowing oyur neighbors lawn and not paying taxes on it, and it's entrenched. People dont' even mention it, it's as if it didn't happen.

The most stupid and predictable thing you will ever hear concerning the issue is, "they only do the jobs that no one else will". Fucking bleeding heart yuppies.

Well honestly the cost of fruits and vegatables would be much higher, there's no doubt about that, but in the sense that no one should be making such poor wages I agree, and I do think it's a joke that given the circumstances, they don't have a VISA policy for migrant workers that makes sense.

[starving student]

oh shit Machines went to the dmv, we done lost a goodin that boy is never coming back

4 hours almost to tell me I don't have enough identification, and I need to take the driving test again etc. because it took me too long to find my birth certificate and my license expired yesterday.

Fuck the governement, seriously, fuck them hard! DOL is always the most unfriendly POS place to visit, and always so accomidating.....

nobody who does make it back is ever happy it's like a convalescent home for people
who've got alot of other stuff to do with their day than be there.

[starving student]

I wonder if it was the brain trouble that made kennedy's head so large, I always thought it was abnormaly so.

[Tone Deft]

I wonder if it was the brain trouble that made kennedy's head so large, I always thought it was abnormaly so.

no, he was a big fat drunken Catholic Mick.

poor out a capful of whiskey for a fallen homie. he was great at pissing off the GOP.

[starving student]

but when he was younger his skull wasn't so distorted.

[DrXparaMental]

But I swear that sometimes the apathy is even worse. That's the ultimate enabler.

and what do you mean by that? that the illegals are not doing it right, that they have other avenues? It's as easy to assume they might not, considering how corrupt south american governements are in general.

What I mean by "apathy" is the stance that many legitimate US citizens take on the issue. They just don't give a shit and go on about how we have so many worse problems, yet take no real issue with those problems either. The expressed ploy that "we have much bigger fish to fry" is fine as long as you are busy frying bigger fish. Excuses like that are typically used by people that are (a) afraid to make their views known, sometimes even to themselves, or (b) They're just apathetic slugs by nature that don't give a shit about much of anything. Caught up in the the vacuum of their own pseudo contentment.

I don't have one personal thing against illegal immigrants in terms of their individual humanity. ESPECIALLY with respect to different races of human beings, one over the other. I don't blame them for "taking the bait". If this were a perfect world we would all live under one flag called Earth. But that's not reality is it? To me, the self supporting lower middle class working man, the illegal immigration problem is real. I see what it has done to the non union private contractor, skilled trade jobs sector. Illegals are like potato bugs. Ravaging a staple crop while not doing so out of some diabolical evil intent, but rather out of basic necessity to themselves as a result of mismanagement of the private sector. Shit government basically. But remember, if we can't logically blame them for "taking the bait", logical turn about would seem to dictate that we can't blame the contractor for "taking the bait". I blame both equally. But mostly I blame apathy and covert divisive politics for being the largest and most powerful enabler of all.

Sure, I most certainly resent paying taxes that those bozos who profit here don't. Only a jellyfish wouldn't.

OK then take it further, doesn't it bother you even more that 99% of the people making over 400k a year aren't paying as much taxes as you do? Let's face it, you get ot a certain level in the US and you have elaborate in intricate ways of making it look like your businesses are all working at a loss to expand etc., and you pay zilch in taxes, nada. This is far worse of a problem IMO than some mexican dude mowing oyur neighbors lawn and not paying taxes on it, and it's entrenched. People dont' even mention it, it's as if it didn't happen.

Thing is, most legitimate working class US citizens benefit either directly or indirectly from those 400,000 an up annual income earners. Many of them are small business owners employing no illegitimate workers. We don't get a thing except a higher tax bill, a screwed up wage, an electorally mangled vote prospectus and general over crowding from illegal immigrants. However it's true that we might pay .25 less for an apple at the super market.

The bottom and only real line to me is: I just don't think it's fair and that it serves anyone's true best interest, for a sizable segment of the population to exist and operate "under the radar". No matter how you slice it, that's a play most often associated with criminals. I am certainly not stating that illegals are typically criminals, just that their official status is what most active criminals seek. An undisclosed and untraceable identity. When that residential status infiltrates the legitimate citizenry, it means less than desirable results that out weigh the benefits of a cheaper piece of fruit or bag of frozen vegetables.

[scott nathaniel]

What I mean by "apathy" is the stance that many legitimate US citizens take on the issue. They just don't give a shit and go on about how we have so many worse problems, yet take no real issue with those problems either. The expressed ploy that "we have much bigger fish to fry" is fine as long as you are busy frying bigger fish. Excuses like that are typically used by people that are (a) afraid to make their views known, sometimes even to themselves, or (b) They're just apathetic slugs by nature that don't give a shit about much of anything. Caught up in the the vacuum of their own pseudo contentment.

I don't have one personal thing against illegal immigrants in terms of their individual humanity. ESPECIALLY with respect to different races of human beings, one over the other. I don't blame them for "taking the bait". If this were a perfect world we would all live under one flag called Earth. But that's not reality is it? To me, the self supporting lower middle class working man, the illegal immigration problem is real. I see what it has done to the non union private contractor, skilled trade jobs sector. Illegals are like potato bugs. Ravaging a staple crop while not doing so out of some diabolical evil intent, but rather out of basic necessity to themselves as a result of mismanagement of the private sector. Shit government basically. But remember, if we can't logically blame them for "taking the bait", logical turn about would seem to dictate that we can't blame the contractor for "taking the bait". I blame both equally. But mostly I blame apathy and covert divisive politics for being the largest and most powerful enabler of all.

I promised myself that I wouldn't get into these impotent debates, but I am FAIL, so wtf. But I ask, what do you seek? what is your proposal. How do we fry these "small fish."

You've enumerated the types or classes of apathy, which to you are the ones who don't share your outrage at the situation as concerns illegal immigration. You haven't offered what one is suppose to do beyond this outrage. Do You think forum fingerpecking is a viable and productive expression?

I've been watching a lot of townhall meetings lately, most seem to have taken place in the south. At one meeting , a rep barely brought up the word immigrant before people started shouting kill em', shoot them at the border, etc. You realize as you may classify me as apathetic, I initially group you in with these newly emerging townhall types. Right or wrong, it's in essence, exactly what you are doing. Without an actual proposal that extends beyond outrage, your case becomes cartoonish.

I live about 40 miles from the Mexican border. The Hispanic population is great enough to render this area Mexico, part two. Now, if you took one of those townhall right-wing groupies and brought them here. What would they think? They would see each and every Hispanic and gloss over all objectivity and yell, "SHOOT EM" ALL!"
You say above that you have nothing against "personal humanity" of the "illegal immigrant." If so, then why don't you spend your energies trying to come up with a solution. Your way, now, leads to attacks against their "personal humanity." I would say your outrage if not apathetic only simmers down to the pathetic.
Now, contrary to what you probably think, I hold some resentment. Where i live it is almost essential to know Spanish to get a blue collar job. Some jobs require this outright. But if I yell in the streets my voice will be added to the wave of psychotics yelling "shoot em," a group I despise beyond expression. So my non-action on the issue is not a case of apathy, but one of sobriety.

Now, woo-hoo, Live 8 rocks. Making music, that's where I'm starting to show signs of apathy.

[DrXparaMental]

What I mean by "apathy" is the stance that many legitimate US citizens take on the issue. They just don't give a shit and go on about how we have so many worse problems, yet take no real issue with those problems either. The expressed ploy that "we have much bigger fish to fry" is fine as long as you are busy frying bigger fish. Excuses like that are typically used by people that are (a) afraid to make their views known, sometimes even to themselves, or (b) They're just apathetic slugs by nature that don't give a shit about much of anything. Caught up in the the vacuum of their own pseudo contentment.

I don't have one personal thing against illegal immigrants in terms of their individual humanity. ESPECIALLY with respect to different races of human beings, one over the other. I don't blame them for "taking the bait". If this were a perfect world we would all live under one flag called Earth. But that's not reality is it? To me, the self supporting lower middle class working man, the illegal immigration problem is real. I see what it has done to the non union private contractor, skilled trade jobs sector. Illegals are like potato bugs. Ravaging a staple crop while not doing so out of some diabolical evil intent, but rather out of basic necessity to themselves as a result of mismanagement of the private sector. Shit government basically. But remember, if we can't logically blame them for "taking the bait", logical turn about would seem to dictate that we can't blame the contractor for "taking the bait". I blame both equally. But mostly I blame apathy and covert divisive politics for being the largest and most powerful enabler of all.

I promised myself that I wouldn't get into these impotent debates, but I am FAIL, so wtf. But I ask, what do you seek? what is your proposal. How do we fry these "small fish."

You've enumerated the types or classes of apathy, which to you are the ones who don't share your outrage at the situation as concerns illegal immigration. You haven't offered what one is suppose to do beyond this outrage. Do You think forum fingerpecking is a viable and productive expression?

I've been watching a lot of townhall meetings lately, most seem to have taken place in the south. At one meeting , a rep barely brought up the word immigrant before people started shouting kill em', shoot them at the border, etc. You realize as you may classify me as apathetic, I initially group you in with these newly emerging townhall types. Right or wrong, it's in essence, exactly what you are doing. Without an actual proposal that extends beyond outrage, your case becomes cartoonish.

I live about 40 miles from the Mexican border. The Hispanic population is great enough to render this area Mexico, part two. Now, if you took one of those townhall right-wing groupies and brought them here. What would they think? They would see each and every Hispanic and gloss over all objectivity and yell, "SHOOT EM" ALL!"
You say above that you have nothing against "personal humanity" of the "illegal immigrant." If so, then why don't you spend your energies trying to come up with a solution. Your way, now, leads to attacks against their "personal humanity." I would say your outrage if not apathetic only simmers down to the pathetic.
Now, contrary to what you probably think, I hold some resentment. Where i live it is almost essential to know Spanish to get a blue collar job. Some jobs require this outright. But if I yell in the streets my voice will be added to the wave of psychotics yelling "shoot em," a group I despise beyond expression. So my non-action on the issue is not a case of apathy, but one of sobriety.

Now, woo-hoo, Live 8 rocks. Making music, that's where I'm starting to show signs of apathy.

Apathy & Live 8, you DO need help.

Actually, I don't own a gun. I am not a violent person unless pushed to no other resort in a situation where I am directly threatened. I don't see myself EVER condoning a "shoot 'em" approach. I think that change occurs on a ground level in people's minds and that speaking out can draw attention to the issue. My example of "bigger fish to fry" was in effect a reference to excuse making, not a suggested mandate for a call to arms or any other extreme.

No friend, the change that needs to take place can only take place on a real systematic level. We need control, not walls, not guns, not lawn mower's unions, and certainly not racially motivated nonsense. Think about it. What is the one "ticket" that makes the whole thing enticing and possible to begin with?

[Machinesworking]

Thing is, most legitimate working class US citizens benefit either directly or indirectly from those 400,000 an up annual income earners.

OK, you have to admit that this line right here is a complete and total excuse. So what you're saying is because these people get so rich not paying taxes they can afford to hire the working class? Sounds like privilege, reads like you're OK with a caste system.

I'm not trying to cherry pick, I agree with most of what you're saying, I think the problem should be addressed, though probably not the way you think it should be addressed.... but I'm flabbergasted that people, not just you or your post here, but people in general are OK with an owning class that pays no taxes, yet decry a working poor illegal class, that, you guessed it, is almost exclusively hired by that same owning class?


How many rich politicians get caught every year with illegal maids? How many huge apple farms hire illegals? How many landscapers are illegal in the wealthy parts of your city?

let me make this clear, the same asswipes that dodge paying taxes, that you're OK with, are hiring illegals to paint their houses, mow their lawns, clean and remodel..... they are in no way unrelated. Contractors hire illegals to compete for work because they lose work to illegals all the time, and that work isn't being paid for by the lower and middle classes.