How to use Ableton on stage, as a rockband

[starfckr]

Hi,


After browsing the forum for some time now, i thought it was about time i made my first post. I apologize in advance for my bad english.

I play in a band playing pop-rock, or white trash pop, as we like to call it, and i write most of the music using the wonderful ableton live. I mainly use it to record ideas, which we then process further in a live enviroment. But, gradually, we have become more and more dependent on backing tracks, samples, drum loops, and different vst-instruments from inside of ableton, and my reason for posting here, is that i would like to expand my limited use of ableton in concert, to a full blown live experience.

Right now i use just a mac, a simple soundcard, a midi keyboard, and a standalone synth, and i feel this setup just doesnt cut it in the long run.

Let me detail my needs and problems a little further.

I need to be able to:

• Trigger drum loops in sync to the live drummer
  Trigger samples and other audio (also in sync)
  Run the vocal audio through effects and suchs within ableton
  Run my (and the other guitarist) through ableton (for example with guitar rig)

And all this must be possible while (a) playing the guitar, (b) rocking out with my cock out, and (c) might be a little drunk.

I reason that i need the following:

• A good midi-controller, in which iam pondering on either the akai controller for ableton, a better midi keyboard with more controllers, or a footboard (for using while playing guitar)
  A soundcard with more inputs / outputs

Any tips on hardware, or examples of setups?

Secondly, iam looking for how other people use ableton in similear settings. How is the best way to set up live for using with a "normal" band?
For example. How do you easily change between songs during the live set, without having to interact with the MAC between songs?
Should i use some kind of in-ear-click for the drummer, and how? Or is there a better way to get everything to sync up?

Also, feel free to check out our music, if it gives you a better idea.
http://myspace.com/pandorapeaksnorway

All help is much appreciated!

[Jekblad]

Yowzer dude!

Two guitar rig plugs and a vocal seems dangerous to me...
Even just the vocal seems a little scary but safer if u use "native" plugs.

Yes to click if u want all synced up, although u could check out this software called "in-time". No link sorry I'm on my phone.

So: this is all totally possible, the guitar plugs worry me in a live situation because they are cpu hungry and third party. If u have a powerful machine u could be fine! I'd bring guitar amps just in case, or maybe a POD to process the guitar before Live gets it. This will save CPU and u can always plug in direct if the harddrive crashes.

Search "the click track bible" on vimeo.com it has a lot of basic info you'll need to pull this off.

[luddy]

I'm in an electronic band, and we do something similar to what you are describing. I route my keyboards' audio outs into Ableton, and the lead vocal goes through a channel strip in Ableton also.

So far the way I've done it is to use the arrangement timeline for backing tracks and for any programmed automation -- like timeline control of the vocal delay, for example. There is one stretch of timeline for each song in a one-hour set. There is a locator at the beginning of each song, so we can trigger the songs in any order in principle, although we typically choose the running order ahead of time.

One trick I've found very valuable for managing CPU load is to automate the Device On parameter for different software instruments and effects. This can only be done in the arrangement -- session clips cannot automate Device On. By doing this, you can in effect turn off anything that you're not using in a particular song. Saves tons of CPU.

It's easy to know whether your computer is up to the task when you set it up. You can run through the whole set, and if your cpu stays below some comfortable value -- I like to shoot for 30% for example -- then you're good.

As for triggering stuff, the thing is that launching can be quantized if you want for it to be. For this to work out, the drummer has to play to a click. In other words, Ableton and the drummer have to agree about the tempo and bars exactly. If you use a click, then launching clips is as easy as mapping them to some MIDI events and playing the appropriate MIDI event within the quantization window (e.g., within one beat before you want the sample to play). It's not too bad with some practice.

Cock hanging out playing electric guitar: make sure that everything is properly grounded.

-Luddy

[Sage]

Yowzer dude!

Two guitar rig plugs and a vocal seems dangerous to me...
Even just the vocal seems a little scary but safer if u use "native" plugs.

Really? I run a guitar and sometimes vocals through Live plus synths and stuff, not an issue at all.


To the threadstarter, if your drummer is comfortable with click tracks, it's the simpliest solution, if a little restrictive. If you want to keep the 'live band' feel, try routing the guitar's audio from Live to amps onstage.

Also if you want to keep it continuous, set up a file with everything on it, so you're not having to load everything up.

[Atomikat]

I play in a band (trio)and the center of all is Live 7. We have the backing tracks with all the instruments recorded minus the lead guitar,some keyboards and the voices. We mainly play rock and pop (english and spanish). I use Guitar Rig 3 as standalone with the RK1 and a FCB1010 and into Live I have a track or two for the backing tracks, another for the voice with effects...we never had a problem with this. I use a Macbook Pro (Live and Guitar Rig),a RME Multiface, a Parker Nitefly SA and a P-42 guitars,a FCB1010, and the keyboardist has a Korg, the singer...well, she has this wonderful voice that makes us proud of having her in the band.
Sometimes we play with a drummer, I just send a click track to him through one channel of the soundcard (obviously,a different from the main outs).

[starfckr]

Thanks for all the good answers so far!
I have gotten alot further in my planning stage.

Search "the click track bible" on vimeo.com it has a lot of basic info you'll need to pull this off.

Thanks for the link! Interesting video for sure, its good that its out there, altough it didnt learn me so much i didnt already know, iam more just like searching for inputs on the best way of doing it, to save me some precious time, and money

I will probably go for a solution where the drummer is fed a standalone click track, and then use the arrangement timeline in Live for the backing tracks, as luddy suggested. This is similear to how I do it now, i just need to pick it up a notch, to get it where its more "streamlined" when on stage.

I think i will run the vocal via Live, then to the mix, and as for the guitars, I will probably run them from live first, then into the amps, and then to the mix, but i will test different things out here before decieding.

So, i will then need some new equipment. Mainly the FCB1010 for controlling live, and Focusrite Saffire PRO24 as my new soundcard, which seems to fit my demands at a reasonable price. Anything else i should think of?

So far the way I've done it is to use the arrangement timeline for backing tracks and for any programmed automation -- like timeline control of the vocal delay, for example. There is one stretch of timeline for each song in a one-hour set. There is a locator at the beginning of each song, so we can trigger the songs in any order in principle, although we typically choose the running order ahead of time.

One trick I've found very valuable for managing CPU load is to automate the Device On parameter for different software instruments and effects. This can only be done in the arrangement -- session clips cannot automate Device On. By doing this, you can in effect turn off anything that you're not using in a particular song. Saves tons of CPU.

Could you perhaps detail how you are doing this exactly? A screenshot would be much appreciated!

Do you have one "track" for each song?
Do you load several songs (and all their tracks) into the arrangement view, resulting in X amount of tracks, which is then automated to preserve CPU use?
Or do you have set amount of tracks, which you use for all songs, but automate every parameter which the track needs?

Example. In one song, i have eight different backing tracks, with different paremeters. In another i have four, pluss some midi-drum-patterns. And so forth.

Would the best way be to just record all of the tracks in one song, as one backing track, and then build opp a set consisting of all the combined backingtracks for all songs, seperated by locators?
That would certainly reduce CPU, but would make it diffucult to make changes on the fly.

And i reckon you also automate the tempo shifts for each song? Which i havent done before, but seems easy enough in Live, i thought, untill i tried it last night. But i will probably get a hang of it after using it some more.

I think i might experiment with different things here. But i appreciate all input. Iam still learning.

the singer...well, she has this wonderful voice that makes us proud of having her in the band.

You and me both. I love our female singer. She has balls. Like metaphoricly.

[luddy]

Could you perhaps detail how you are doing this exactly? A screenshot would be much appreciated!

Do you have one "track" for each song?
Do you load several songs (and all their tracks) into the arrangement view, resulting in X amount of tracks, which is then automated to preserve CPU use?
Or do you have set amount of tracks, which you use for all songs, but automate every parameter which the track needs?

Example. In one song, i have eight different backing tracks, with different paremeters. In another i have four, pluss some midi-drum-patterns. And so forth.

I'm traveling these days and don't have my mac on the internet, so I can't upload a screenshot, sorry. I'll try to describe it however.

I use four stereo stems for each song: drums, bass, bg vox, and others (usually stuff like pads and other background sounds). Yes, the tempo is automated on the master track. I then run several "live" tracks (tracks whose input monitoring is set to ON). One track is for the lead vocal, and has eq, comp, and a rack of programmable delays. Another track is for electric piano, I often use Electric (live's instrument) through some effects. I run several MIDI tracks that route my controllers to external sound modules. For example, I might play the RD700 but route the MIDI data to a Virus; this is done by a MIDI track.

I try hard to avoid the "X tracks" effect you are talking about, where each song means more and more tracks. I think of Live like a front-of-house console with backing tracks; just as you can't add more and more console channels for each song, so you have to re-use Live's tracks across songs to make it work. Automation helps a lot -- you can use it to select between different instruments / effects in a rack, for example. You have to spend some time thinking about your live show and what it needs and what the songs have in common. Again, if you think of it more like a hardware rack or console that you are building and not so much like a software environment that you can change entirely at every song, it makes it easier to build entire sets into a single Live set.

hth,

-Luddy

[starfckr]

I use four stereo stems for each song: drums, bass, bg vox, and others (usually stuff like pads and other background sounds). Yes, the tempo is automated on the master track. I then run several "live" tracks (tracks whose input monitoring is set to ON). One track is for the lead vocal, and has eq, comp, and a rack of programmable delays. Another track is for electric piano, I often use Electric (live's instrument) through some effects. I run several MIDI tracks that route my controllers to external sound modules. For example, I might play the RD700 but route the MIDI data to a Virus; this is done by a MIDI track.

I try hard to avoid the "X tracks" effect you are talking about, where each song means more and more tracks. I think of Live like a front-of-house console with backing tracks; just as you can't add more and more console channels for each song, so you have to re-use Live's tracks across songs to make it work. Automation helps a lot -- you can use it to select between different instruments / effects in a rack, for example. You have to spend some time thinking about your live show and what it needs and what the songs have in common. Again, if you think of it more like a hardware rack or console that you are building and not so much like a software environment that you can change entirely at every song, it makes it easier to build entire sets into a single Live set.

Thanks for the clarificatoin. Your detailed explanation was almost exactly what i thought, and hoped, it would be. Which is good, cause it means that iam learning.

OKAY. So, Ive started experimenting a bit, to discover what i exactly need through a whole live set, and what works best for us as a band. The most important thing for me, is that my setup is easy to change and tweak songs between concerts, and that i can keep expanding it to suit our everchanging needs.

It seems to be two radically different ways of doing this, either through the session-view or the arrangement view, and both have their pros and cons. In arrangement, you have the advantage of automation, and you get a more fixed timeline of your song, as for in session where it seems to be much easier to launch samples and effects, whole backing tracks, and to get the complete overview over your whole set.

Bonus question. As iam a bit new to midi-mapping as well. Is it possible to assign a midi controller to launch severall different things? For example, when i press [button] i want four different effects to turn on, and three others to turn of.

[luddy]

It seems to be two radically different ways of doing this, either through the session-view or the arrangement view, and both have their pros and cons. In arrangement, you have the advantage of automation, and you get a more fixed timeline of your song, as for in session where it seems to be much easier to launch samples and effects, whole backing tracks, and to get the complete overview over your whole set.

You can do automation in both (session) clips and in the arrangement. There are subtle differences between the two however. Device On can only be automated in arrangement view. MIDI CCs can only be automated in a clip envelope. However, the clip can be played in either arrangement or session view so that's not really a difference between the views.

You can also mix the two views. Any session clip can be launched while the arrangement is running. If the clip belongs to a track that is already playing, then the launched clip will cut off the arrangement clip for the same track. You can use session clips for more dynamic stuff that you want to trigger, and the arrangement view for fixed stuff like backing tracks and other program material that always goes the same way (like FX automation).

Doing everything from session view is also possible, but I tend to think that if you're going to do that, then someone needs to man Ableton full-time during the show. Because you don't want backing tracks and other critical stuff to be mis-triggered. This is why so many bands that use Ableton in live shows use the arrangement view (in contrast to DJs).

Bonus question. As iam a bit new to midi-mapping as well. Is it possible to assign a midi controller to launch severall different things? For example, when i press [button] i want four different effects to turn on, and three others to turn of.

Yes, you can map a single MIDI event to several controls in Live.

hth,

-Luddy