Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Hermanus
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Location: Belgium

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by Hermanus » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:31 am

I played on drums when I was in bands [about 12 years ago] and it really gives you the basics.
Understanding the logic in drumming.

If you got the opportunity for being taught by a drummer, take it.

If not, Practice.

Bongos/Djembe, percussions are good to practice too

aizo
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Location: Osaka

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by aizo » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:07 am

You have to use a lot of velocity. It helps MASSIVELY!!!

for example this simple hi hat pattern:

I X - X- X - X I X - X - X - X - I X - X - X - X I X - X - X - X I
...........if you use no velocity it sounds like a printer ticking

IX - x - X - x I X - x - X - x I X - x - X - x I
........ if you bring down the velocity on the "e" and the "a" than you add that driving force to the hihat much as a drum would add that pulse to playing the hihat.
ImageImage

fishmonkey
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by fishmonkey » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:10 am

accents!

BlackMath
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by BlackMath » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:00 pm

Thanks for all the replies gang

I think I'm starting to make a little headway.

BlackMath
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by BlackMath » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:13 pm

maybe I'll go get Maschine... that might help...
I've heard good things

ethios4
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by ethios4 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:54 pm

Have you tried to exactly reproduce that Freeland drum sequence? It can be a tedious exercise but very rewarding.

At first the beat is very simple, so I think that part has more to do with subtle velocity changes than anything. For example, the hi hat is accented on the off-beat. There is also a nice reverb to the drums which helps bring it to life. With the fill, he starts introducing hits on the x.x.2 and x.x.4, which is where the funk lives, and where very subtle timing changes make all the difference.

Randomization is nice but a good drummer is not random...those subtle fluctuations in timing and velocity are semi-conscious responses to the other elements in the groove. Likewise, groove settings are helpful but may not necessarily complement the groove that actually exists.

Also, having a great drumkit sampler is essential. If the drum samples are not reflecting what you are doing with velocity, then your work is largely in vain.

outershpongolia
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by outershpongolia » Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:57 pm

ethios4 wrote:Randomization is nice but a good drummer is not random...those subtle fluctuations in timing and velocity are semi-conscious responses to the other elements in the groove. Likewise, groove settings are helpful but may not necessarily complement the groove that actually exists.
I hear ya..

ethios4
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by ethios4 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:00 pm

Also, in the Freeland example (and I'm sure it was noticed, but in case not...), there are a lot of subtle 'ghost' hits on the hihat on the x.x.2 and x.x.4...these are HUGE in creating a groove that rocks!

josephjobling
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Location: Leeds UK
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by josephjobling » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:04 pm

Hermanus wrote:I played on drums when I was in bands [about 12 years ago] and it really gives you the basics.
Understanding the logic in drumming.

If you got the opportunity for being taught by a drummer, take it.

If not, Practice.

Bongos/Djembe, percussions are good to practice too
i dont play the drums but did get the oppertunity to have a play around with a drumkit a few times - it helped me no end - being able to understand how druming works and what your 2 hands/sticks are doing. i agree with hermanus try to get on a drum kit (even if its a demo in a shop) and that will help you understand how to create a groove - well it helped me anywho :)

ethios4
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by ethios4 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 6:22 pm

+1 to getting behind a drum kit.

It also helped me to study youtube videos of drummers, especially the kind where you only hear the drums or mainly the drums.

BlackMath
Posts: 415
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by BlackMath » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:44 pm

ethios4 wrote:Have you tried to exactly reproduce that Freeland drum sequence? It can be a tedious exercise but very rewarding.

At first the beat is very simple, so I think that part has more to do with subtle velocity changes than anything. For example, the hi hat is accented on the off-beat. There is also a nice reverb to the drums which helps bring it to life. With the fill, he starts introducing hits on the x.x.2 and x.x.4, which is where the funk lives, and where very subtle timing changes make all the difference.

Randomization is nice but a good drummer is not random...those subtle fluctuations in timing and velocity are semi-conscious responses to the other elements in the groove. Likewise, groove settings are helpful but may not necessarily complement the groove that actually exists.

Also, having a great drumkit sampler is essential. If the drum samples are not reflecting what you are doing with velocity, then your work is largely in vain.

I have tried to replicate the drums to the Freeland track.
I cut out a section of the drums and then tried to line up my midi notes with the transients of the loop. it worked pretty good....
I think what I've discovered is the other elements are playing a bigger role in "the feel" of the track than I realized.
My drums played along with the loop I extracted sounds pretty much spot on as fas as the drums are concerned.... but when I solo my drums they don't really punch like the Freeland drums.
But the more I'm gathering from your suggestions and experimenting.....good things seem to be happening which was my problem of getting stuck in a frustrating rut.

Tone Deft
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Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:51 pm

in addition to the helpful advice... I'd use drum loops and move along. there are many aspects to making songs, spend time on what's working and have fun. drums will come to you another day.

for me it was getting solid drum sounds, I got that with the EIC drums from Ableton. also, the loop library "All The Breaks" was a breakthrough for me. those came along 10 years into electronic music making for me.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

fuzzyhead
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Location: Froggystan

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by fuzzyhead » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:24 pm

An other advice is to ask Tommy Lee to reproduce it for you as he's the one that plays the drums in this tune...

http://www.vimeo.com/4745563 8)

zalo
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by zalo » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:30 pm

VEC samples + Drum Rack(Sampler) + EQ + NY compression

you can get some pretty solid drum kits from that set up especially using like a sin wave sub bass with the kick tuned to the song key

josephjobling
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by josephjobling » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:45 pm

zalo wrote:VEC samples + Drum Rack(Sampler) + EQ + NY compression

you can get some pretty solid drum kits from that set up especially using like a sin wave sub bass with the kick tuned to the song key
+1

Good way to fatten up any kick,keep the attack and release on the sub nice and quick = fat kick hmmmmmmm

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