Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
BlackMath
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:16 am

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by BlackMath » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:48 pm

zalo wrote:VEC samples + Drum Rack(Sampler) + EQ + NY compression

you can get some pretty solid drum kits from that set up especially using like a sin wave sub bass with the kick tuned to the song key

what are VEC samples????



Edit: nevermind Vengeance Essential Club sounds

BlackMath
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:16 am

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by BlackMath » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:58 pm

fuzzyhead wrote:An other advice is to ask Tommy Lee to reproduce it for you as he's the one that plays the drums in this tune...

http://www.vimeo.com/4745563 8)

I see! well that explains alot....

Maybe I should just tap in my beats while suspended in a cage spinning 360 degrees over a crowd of strippers with pyrotechnics exploding around me.

fuzzyhead
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:40 pm
Location: Froggystan

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by fuzzyhead » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:07 pm

Maybe I should just tap in my beats while suspended in a cage spinning 360 degrees over a crowd of strippers with pyrotechnics exploding around me.
That should do the trick.. :mrgreen:

Tagor
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by Tagor » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:50 pm

just some thoughts

pretending to be a musician can be very frustrating

in former times artists lived for their only way to exist

today many people can easily have the technology without
any real desire or love for the thing called music

there are a lots of kids just watched a video from tom cosm
on youtube and joined a party with a DJ - and wooom the desire
of beeing cool is awaken

they dont buy live or cubase or fruityloops because it includes
ways to get a specific sound or workaround to entertain on stage
in a unique way

they buy it because they wanna wanna be so badly something
they are just not - YET - you never know

try to have fun with the riddims and sounds you produce
and if it bore yourself be more a researcher then somebody
try to reach established standards of confirmed musical concepts

you will be much closer to that feeling of happyness music-creation can
cause if you do not try to extract somebody elses grooves

BlackMath
Posts: 415
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:16 am

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by BlackMath » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:07 pm

Tagor wrote:just some thoughts

pretending to be a musician can be very frustrating

in former times artists lived for their only way to exist

today many people can easily have the technology without
any real desire or love for the thing called music

there are a lots of kids just watched a video from tom cosm
on youtube and joined a party with a DJ - and wooom the desire
of beeing cool is awaken

they dont buy live or cubase or fruityloops because it includes
ways to get a specific sound or workaround to entertain on stage
in a unique way

they buy it because they wanna wanna be so badly something
they are just not - YET - you never know

try to have fun with the riddims and sounds you produce
and if it bore yourself be more a researcher then somebody
try to reach established standards of confirmed musical concepts

you will be much closer to that feeling of happyness music-creation can
cause if you do not try to extract somebody elses grooves
go F#ck yourself

ethios4
Posts: 5377
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:28 am

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by ethios4 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:27 pm

@ Tagor - eh, OP wasn't saying to copy sounds because of lack of creativity, but rather learning to perfect drum programming. Perfectly legit. :?

outershpongolia
Posts: 2230
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:40 am

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by outershpongolia » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:52 pm

Just give it up, he obviously knows everything.. :mrgreen:

eggnchips
Posts: 566
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:10 am
Location: Berlin

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by eggnchips » Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:49 pm

I met Adam Freeland once. He's a bellend.
Casio keyboard with 48k ZX Spectrum, a couple of tambourines and a triangle.
MUHK RECORDS

contakt321
Posts: 1523
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:39 pm
Location: NYC

Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by contakt321 » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:15 pm

Hey guys,

I think we are all missing the obvious here:

That Freeland record is a chopped up drumloop. He most likely didn't program those drum fills, that was a real drummer either in the studio, on a break on a record or a sample CD. What Freeland likely did was this (OP - step by step guide so you can try to recreate in Ableton):

1. Find a drumbreak (plenty of stuff on the web, find a beat that has that same kinda vibe as this track)
2. Loop 2-8 bars, warp. Record into a new audio track at your desired final tempo (do this so when you chop it, the slices will be at the final tempo - this is crucial).
3. Chop the drumbreak up into chunks: Just the Kick, the Kick and everything that follows to the beginning of the snare, just the snare, the snare and everything that follows to the kick, etc (essentially get all of the bits in big chunks, but also get a copy of each hit separately too).
4. Toss all these into a drum track. Arrange to your liking in a 4 bar loop.
5 Use a new drum rack w/ heavier, more processed sounds (like a drum machine, etc). Layer a Kick on the Kicks or 4/4 depending on your goal. Layer another snare. This is going to give you the heavy, punchy sound that's good for dance music.
6. Layer your cymbals - OHH on the upbeats (if it's housey, etc), crash on the 1 every 4 or 8 bars, etc.
7. Layer any percussion, shakers, etc.
8. EQ the drum break so you feel it, but it doesn't clash with your processed sounds, and vice versa.
9. Create 2 buses - one for reverb, one for compression. Compress drums accordingly (different parts may require more, less or none. Add slight reverb to the cymbals and percussion, add to the snare and drum break if needed.
10. ROCK OUT!

Try this and let us know how it works.

Notes:
- By chopping the bits beginning on the Kicks and Snares it makes it easy to stack the kicks and snares and have it line up.
- I program everything w/ record quantization on (usually 16th triplets) pretty much all dancecmusic up through the 90s was fairly quantized, don't be scared.
- After I have everything recorded, I use my ears and turn the grid off and slide any hits that need it slightly forward or backward. I may do this so they line up w/ the drum break underneath, to give it swing, to give it feel, etc. The important thing USE YOUR EARS! Swing or groove doesn't magically make drums sound good, in fact, most people f_ck it up. Generally I do this manually as opposed to groove or swing (and did the same a lot of the time on the MPC too).
- Use Velocity! I tend to keep my kicks on the 1 and 3, and my snares that are on 2 and 4 at full velocity, but change velocity on the other kicks and snares a little. Also - in my opinion velocity changes on hihats does a TON for the feel and can really help create that shuffling feel.
- Practice, seriously. Find a drumbeat you like, record it and loop it. Load up a drumrack. Create a loop the same length. Next, go into arrange view and put the drum loop and the blank loop right on top of each other. Using your eyes and ears, recreate the drumloop by placing the hits in the same spots and dissecting it. I taught myself by ear on the MPC this way and it was invaluable.

Good luck and let us know if this helps!
Last edited by contakt321 on Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pasha
Posts: 3244
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:45 pm
Location: Lost Island
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Re: Why is so frustratingly difficult??????

Post by Pasha » Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:32 pm

Just to add a little...
My drummer helped me programming some beats using a roland drum pad
he played with sticks. Afterward I tried to mimic his technique
without the sticks..and I have analyzed his tracks, note by note.
Astonishingly he was not 100% precise. Often Hi-Hats, Kicks and Snares
came in the middle of the the right 32th and behind that. Velocity was also
key, continuously changing.
Usually what makes programmed drums awful is the hi-hat AK47 like...
To avoid this I use the velocity effect with added random velocity
and since Live 8 I apply some grooves. The trick is to apply 'out of sync' grooves. Usually anticipate or delay by a 32th note and you're close, even if a 64th note would be better. It's not ideal but comes closer
to a humanize function, especially if you do not quantize.
Keep in mind that human drummers create that groovy feeling because they are not 'quantized'to tempo.
Personally I have bought both MIDI and Audio drum loops from
http://www.smartloops.com and I solved my problem.
I'm not a drummer and my friend is not always available so I had to go that way.

- hope this helps, although very little.
- Best
- Pasha
Apple iMac 2013 / Macbook Late 2012
Live 10 Suite,Zebra ,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

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