OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

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Tone Deft
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:15 pm

not being dramatical, I facepalm every single time someone writes on the forum "I don't know what xxxxx is." FFS you've got the greatest free research device at your fingertips, do a quick Google. lazy people.

wow, now you're talking temperaments. how much is a note going to vary by temperament? a few cents?

oh, why don't I Google that!?!?

http://www.musiccog.ohio-state.edu/Musi ... uning.html

Name of Tuning System Fifth Major Third Minor Third Major Second Minor Second
Pythagorean Tuning 0.0 +21.5 -21.5 0.0 -21.5
Equal Temperament -2.0 +13.7 -15.6 -3.9 -11.7
Silbermann Tuning -3.9 +5.9 -9.8 -7.8 -2.0
Meantone Tuning -5.4 0.0 -5.4 -10.8 +5.4
Salinas Tuning -7.2 -7.2 0.0 -14.3 +14.3


it's not like a temperament would make someone with perfect pitch mistake a B for a C, they'd hear it out of pitch a little bit. you're applying the man made construct of temperaments onto peoples' ears, that's backwards.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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nuxnamon
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by nuxnamon » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:24 pm

Tone Deft wrote:no theory background needed. anyone can walk up to a piano and plunk on the notes. someone with perfect pitch would know which notes to hit.

think about it like being able to identify colors, something we can all do, except the color blind.
oh I get it.. so let's say i have perfect pitch and had no musical background.. someone plays me a tune on the piano.. Let's just say I didn't see what notes he pressed and I've never seen the piano before my whole life.. I can press the keys randomly but when I hear that note/notes he played, I will know it.. regardless if I know it's a C or Am, I just know what it sounds like when I hear it and can distinguish it from other sounds..

Tone Deft
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:26 pm

that's how I understand it. playing those games with people with perfect pitch is fun but they get aggravated pretty quick. lol.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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scott nathaniel
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by scott nathaniel » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:28 pm

Tone Deft wrote:not being dramatical, I facepalm every single time someone writes on the forum "I don't know what xxxxx is." FFS you've got the greatest free research device at your fingertips, do a quick Google. lazy people.

wow, now you're talking temperaments. how much is a note going to vary by temperament? a few cents?

oh, why don't I Google that!?!?
Actually, Google is the lazy way because you've copied something of which you don't appear to have much comprehension. A person doesn't know a c is a c until an association has been made. How long does it take for this association to become cemented, meaning how many times would one with perfect pitch have to listen to a frequency, along with it's symbol, such as c, d, etc., before that pitch can be recalled at will? Would two different people with "perfect pitch" make this correlation with the same amount of exposure. If not then that would one person would have a more perfect pitch than someone else with perfect pitch, which doesn't make sense.

bosonHavoc
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by bosonHavoc » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:30 pm

Tone Deft wrote:that's how I understand it. playing those games with people with perfect pitch is fun but they get aggravated pretty quick. lol.
lol

tone deft :P

i've always got a kick out of your name.. even more so in this thread

edit (they play is changing deft to deaf though.. i know deft does not mean deaf)

Tone Deft
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:33 pm

Scott - disagree on all counts.

I usually read more than one hit on google or at least make sure it's a site I'd trust. you're saying that not googling isn't lazy but using google is? what?

like I wrote earlier, with my friend that has perfect pitch I can play a note out of the blue and he can name it.

I don't know how long it would take. how long did it take for you to learn the color red? quite a long time I imagine. :P



LOL boson.



stringtapper, you out there? can you help me here?
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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nuxnamon
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by nuxnamon » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:39 pm

scott nathaniel wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:not being dramatical, I facepalm every single time someone writes on the forum "I don't know what xxxxx is." FFS you've got the greatest free research device at your fingertips, do a quick Google. lazy people.

wow, now you're talking temperaments. how much is a note going to vary by temperament? a few cents?

oh, why don't I Google that!?!?
Actually, Google is the lazy way because you've copied something of which you don't appear to have much comprehension. A person doesn't know a c is a c until an association has been made. How long does it take for this association to become cemented, meaning how many times would one with perfect pitch have to listen to a frequency, along with it's symbol, such as c, d, etc., before that pitch can be recalled at will? Would two different people with "perfect pitch" make this correlation with the same amount of exposure. If not then that would one person would have a more perfect pitch than someone else with perfect pitch, which doesn't make sense.
i might be wrong but let's say you show me the color red.. You don't tell me the name of it, you just show me.. next you show me a bunch of different colors and I can pick out the color red when i see it, even though I don't know what it's called.. i don't even know if that makes sense but I tried.. Maybe i'm wrong cuz this is all new to me also..

stringtapper
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:41 pm

First of all, no I have not encountered a whole lot of students with perfect pitch but I have encountered some. Most of what I am talking about with students comes from my training from one of my mentors (the professor whose perfect pitch is "detuning") who has spent years devising methods to deal with students who have perfect pitch. Also keep in mind that I teach/study at one of the largest music schools in the U.S., so statistically it should make sense that I encounter more students with perfect pitch than others.

Now, as far as what absolute pitch is, from the research I have done the phenomenon of absolute pitch is almost certainly a learned response to exposure to defined pitch collections (e.g. the equal tempered chromatic scale). There is nothing to suggest that there is a "perfect pitch gene" or anything like that. Much like language skills, absolute pitch detection seems to develop during the critical early periods of life. In general people who have absolute pitch are those who have been exposed to music from a very early age. There are even studies that have been done that suggest that absolute pitch can actually be unlearned. It's a fascinating and complex topic that we're still learning about.
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scott nathaniel
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by scott nathaniel » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:43 pm

Tone Deft wrote:Scott - disagree on all counts.

I usually read more than one hit on google or at least make sure it's a site I'd trust. you're saying that not googling isn't lazy but using google is? what?

like I wrote earlier, with my friend that has perfect pitch I can play a note out of the blue and he can name it.

I don't know how long it would take. how long did it take for you to learn the color red? quite a long time I imagine. :P



LOL boson.




stringtapper, you out there? can you help me here?
Look, I know what perfect pitch means, I was asking in jest, to see if someone could explain it, that is, people who toss the term around. My question was partially rhetorical, kind of like "oh, Why is there war."
What then is relative pitch. You mean, if I asked you to sing a c, you'd come within some range, but not nail it, so to speak. If time is not an issue, then you, theoretically could possibly "learn' perfect pitch. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you sat at the piano for hours day, for two weeks straight, playing all the notes and attempting then to recall their names from memory, constantly playing a c and concentrating on how it sounds. I bet after a few weeks, or the amount of time needed, you would have those pitches etched in your head and would be able to recall as does anyone else with perfect pitch. Do you think that would be possible?
Last edited by scott nathaniel on Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

scott nathaniel
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by scott nathaniel » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:47 pm

stringtapper wrote:First of all, no I have not encountered a whole lot of students with perfect pitch but I have encountered some. Most of what I am talking about with students comes from my training from one of my mentors (the professor whose perfect pitch is "detuning") who has spent years devising methods to deal with students who have perfect pitch. Also keep in mind that I teach/study at one of the largest music schools in the U.S., so statistically it should make sense that I encounter more students with perfect pitch than others.

Now, as far as what absolute pitch is, from the research I have done the phenomenon of absolute pitch is almost certainly a learned response to exposure to defined pitch collections (e.g. the equal tempered chromatic scale). There is nothing to suggest that there is a "perfect pitch gene" or anything like that. Much like language skills, absolute pitch detection seems to develop during the critical early periods of life. In general people who have absolute pitch are those who have been exposed to music from a very early age. There are even studies that have been done that suggest that absolute pitch can actually be unlearned. It's a fascinating and complex topic that we're still learning about.
I agree. That has been my point, perhaps poorly presented, that perfect pitch is learned through association and exposure. Perhaps some learn or remember notes more readily than others, but we all have the capability, save a few unfortunates.

stringtapper
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:50 pm

Theoretically, yes, it could be possible to learn perfect pitch. The problem is that your brain isn't in the same developmental stage at 35 that it is at 2, and that is why it is seemingly impossible to "learn" perfect pitch. At a certain age a good relative pitch is about all most of us can hope for.

But, Tone is correct in that it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with musical training. Only the exposure to certain pitch collections during a crucial developmental period.

There is also no evidence that absolute pitch makes people better musicians. Wagner, Tchaikovsky, Ravel, and Stravinsky all had absolute pitch and we wouldn't necessarily put them above any of the other masters who didn't have it.
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stringtapper
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by stringtapper » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:53 pm

Absolute pitch necessarily involves two primary skills: Long term pitch memory and some form of labeling in order to identify the heard pitches.

Some people associate certain sounds with colors, some associate them with words or descriptions. All, however, have a heightened long term pitch memory due to early life exposure.
Last edited by stringtapper on Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bosonHavoc
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by bosonHavoc » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:55 pm

scott nathaniel wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:Scott - disagree on all counts.

I usually read more than one hit on google or at least make sure it's a site I'd trust. you're saying that not googling isn't lazy but using google is? what?

like I wrote earlier, with my friend that has perfect pitch I can play a note out of the blue and he can name it.

I don't know how long it would take. how long did it take for you to learn the color red? quite a long time I imagine. :P



LOL boson.




stringtapper, you out there? can you help me here?
Look, I know what perfect pitch means, I was asking in just, to see if someone could explain it, that is, people who toss the term around. My question was partially rhetorical, kind of like "oh, Why is there war."
What then is relative pitch. You mean, if I asked you to sing a c, you'd come within some range, but not nail it, so to speak. If time is not an issue, then you, theoretically could possibly "learn' perfect pitch. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you sat at the piano for hours day, for two weeks straight, playing all the notes and attempting then to recall their names from memory, constantly playing a c and concentrating on how it sounds. I bet after a few weeks, or the amount of time needed, you would have those pitches etched in your head and would be able to recall as does anyone else with perfect pitch. Do you think that would be possible?
i think you would go insane first :)

i honestly don't know.. i have researched this before. Every where i turned said that developing perfect pitch is impossible and that you need to develop perfect pitch before the age of like 4 or something. (except of course that weird guy that sells the perfect pitch course lol)

but you can develop relative pitch at anytime.

but i do believe that if you want to do something badly enough you will probably succeed
even though you would probably go insane :)

scott nathaniel
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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by scott nathaniel » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:57 pm

stringtapper wrote:But, Tone is correct in that it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with musical training. Only the exposure to certain pitch collections during a crucial developmental period.
It's like language. We are born with a language faculty, but we are not predisposed to any particular language. And it gets more difficult to learn new languages as we age. We are obviously born with a pitch faculty, hence the auditory system, but besides the frequency range that we can actually perceive, we're not predisposed to any particular pitch within that range, so tunings and pitch sets are cultural and not biological.

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Re: OT: absolute or perfect pitch.. anyone in here have it?

Post by hitechsoul15 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:17 pm

Sorry if this a stupid question, but if I could hear a song and be able to immediately sing it back exactly note for note without ever forgetting the melody/notes, does that mean I have perfect pitch? Or does the rule follow to just musical instruments?

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