So is there any progress on the loudness front?

[Tarekith]

Chesky.

http://www.chesky.com/

[alex.the.forge]

all your dynamics belong to my fist

[Da hand]

Why don't use the same standard as dolby digital (-20 dBFS), those who want really want compressed dynamics can have it then as well, just that listeners won't need to change the volume control when switching from movies to techno, and to ambient recordings or whatever.

I am 100% behind Håkan Bråkan on the standards issue. We should have an RMS standard for music released (just like the movie industry does). I think many of you miss the point of how effectively this would end the loudness and bad mastering war (or at least expose bad mastering as just that and not someone trying to be louder).

Let us face it, the major reason that things are compressed to bits is because the artists and their producers want their songs to be louder than the song before or after it on the iPod of the listener (or at least the same loudness as the song that is trying to be louder than another song). These artists and producers usually know f*** all about sound engineering and mastering, but they hold the money and so the engineers often comply with their clients' requests. If there was an industry standard (say -14 db RMS), then the engineer would say "sorry dude, this is the standard, you have no choice" - as it happens in cinema and tv and no director or producer has a problem with it.

This, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with how much a person can compress the tracks if he/she wanted to. If the "sound" of an artist is to have only 7 db headroom on their tracks, then no problem. They would have their tracks mastered to -14 db RMS and peak at -7db FS. See? the track's dynamics would not change, just its average volume. This way all music would play at -14 db RMS, all at the same volume, and then the artists, producers and engineers would focus on the dynamics they want to create - less or more depending on their creative vision.

Volume is not a creative aspect of music - as the artists have no control over how loud a person plays their music. Dynamic range is something an artist can control. A standard would force people to begin thinking the correct way about this.

[josephjobling]

Why don't use the same standard as dolby digital (-20 dBFS), those who want really want compressed dynamics can have it then as well, just that listeners won't need to change the volume control when switching from movies to techno, and to ambient recordings or whatever.

This, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with how much a person can compress the tracks if he/she wanted to. If the "sound" of an artist is to have only 7 db headroom on their tracks, then no problem. They would have their tracks mastered to -14 db RMS and peak at -7db FS. See? the track's dynamics would not change, just its average volume. This way all music would play at -14 db RMS, all at the same volume, and then the artists, producers and engineers would focus on the dynamics they want to create - less or more depending on their creative vision.

Volume is not a creative aspect of music - as the artists have no control over how loud a person plays their music. Dynamic range is something an artist can control. A standard would force people to begin thinking the correct way about this.

+1
when it comes to the loudness wars its the ultra compresses squashed tracks i am against - its the inproper use of limiters and lack of dynamics that is making modern music sound bad.
i can kind of understand it - i sometimes have to stop my self when i compare my tracks to others and want to make mine sound as "loud". then i just turn their tracks up and listen to the distortion and that reminds me that what i am doing is better.

[Undercover Soul]

+1

Great idea about standardising the -14 dB bit. Problem is how do you regulate it?

There are a lot of people making music at home pushing it hard. However there are not too many people making films at home that are getting public exposure in the same way without regulation.

[Tarekith]

That's the problem, there's no way to enforce it. I think it's a different scenario with the film industry, where you really don't have as many bedroom producers releasing huge scores and expensive soundtracks. Lot different user group releasing music from movies.

I think a standard is a great idea in theory, I just don't see it working unfortunately.

[SubFunk]

That's the problem, there's no way to enforce it. I think it's a different scenario with the film industry, where you really don't have as many bedroom producers releasing huge scores and expensive soundtracks. Lot different user group releasing music from movies.

I think a standard is a great idea in theory, I just don't see it working unfortunately.

+1

the film industry is a totally different ball game... first of all it is about the visual content and they consider the sound as something that supports there work, it is of course an extremely important part of a movie a movie can live or die with a good sound or bad sound, but they are aware of it and therefor taking great care that it carries there work...

also, as tarekith says it is still a way more in 'professional' hands environment then audio, audio especially moving faster and faster towards the home / project studio... at least way faster then movies move towards home production...

the music world is way less 'organized' and more about a lot of individuals fighting to stand out in the market place... therefor really hard to get under 'one roof' also as said audio people don't see audio as an accomplishment but it's the main product... go figure...

besides i think it's total rubbish anyway...

all i think it needs is that people do care again more about sound quality then volume...
(but you see the reality, just look around how many people purchasing 'unimportant crap' like hardware synths or controllers for a lot of money, but still having mediocre monitor setups, the have mainly 'wrong' priorities of the chain of investment and importance to make music sound good, you can start looking around here on the forum...* )

and it does not need a law.

on the other hand, the only real advantage i can see having a 'law' is that bedroom producers might not be able to accomplish to fulfill that 'law'
with there ozone, t-racks and whatever tools... because they simply don't as it stands of today for the most (not all but majority) know what the hell they are actually doing...

still i am all against a law.

* actually very interesting to me, i know and have seen many, many people doing graphics, video, movies, digital photography... i never seen even in the lowest budget level setup any mediocre monitor screens, they all put the most and utter importance to the monitor they do there work on...

in home/project studios it's mainly the other way around... loads of noise toys and shit monitoring, weird, don't you think?

then we don't have to be surprised, really not!!!

you can't make good what you can't hear. no matter how much other great sounding toys you have.

[hurlingdervish]

all i think it needs is that people do care again more about sound quality then volume...
(but you see the reality, just look around how many people purchasing 'unimportant crap' like hardware synths or controllers for a lot of money, but still having mediocre monitor setups, the have mainly 'wrong' priorities of the chain of investment and importance to make music sound good, you can start looking around here on the forum...* )

maybe because the people (even the ones who take it seriously) who use that stuff are doing it for fun!

nothing is wrong....

not everyone has to get their room treated to produce a great track, for artists, I would tell them to get comfortable with their writing situation first.

If they worry about the mixing elements first they will end up producing extremely dull music thats mixed very very well...which is worthless really

[SubFunk]

not everyone has to get their room treated to produce a great track, for artists, I would tell them to get comfortable with their writing situation first.

If they worry about the mixing elements first they will end up producing extremely dull music thats mixed very very well...which is worthless really

i agree, but only if those artists [the ones you are talking about...] then once they have a song, they believe in and want to get released...
take it to a mix and then mastering engineer... but exactly that is not happening in most cases, no they then tinker on there
headphones or crap speakers around and smashing it thru ozone, etc....

[hurlingdervish]

not everyone has to get their room treated to produce a great track, for artists, I would tell them to get comfortable with their writing situation first.

If they worry about the mixing elements first they will end up producing extremely dull music thats mixed very very well...which is worthless really

i agree, but only if those artists [the ones you are talking about...] then once they have a song, they believe in and want to get released...
take it to a mix and then mastering engineer... but exactly that is not happening in most cases, no they then tinker on there
headphones or crap speakers around and smashing it thru ozone, etc....

but if we are indeed referring to an older guy with a couple thousand dollars floating around at any given time then yea

BUY SOME FECKIN MONITORSSSS

ive also seen studios of artists, not engineers, that don't even have a keyboard, but they have a big ass mixing desk and nice monitors
thats all well and good

but where does the music happen

[Sage]

+1

Great idea about standardising the -14 dB bit. Problem is how do you regulate it?

There are a lot of people making music at home pushing it hard. However there are not too many people making films at home that are getting public exposure in the same way without regulation.

You can't tbh, also all music isn't meant to be the same volume, I don't stick on Robert Johnson and expect him to be the same volume as Nine Inch Nails and I don't want a standard because of that. I know things are heading towards everything being the same volume, but my music collection isn't made up purely by modern music.
It'll al change the moment a huge band or producer decides to go against the trend, sells millions of records and everyone will suddenly follow.

[SubFunk]

but if we are indeed referring to an older guy with a couple thousand dollars floating around at any given time then yea

BUY SOME FECKIN MONITORSSSS

i am sorry for using that kind of language, but you are saying buying and having a good set of monitors needs thousands of dollars, is just plain stupid!
and a cheap excuse not to care about it...

besides i referred to and said that most have a wrong priority of investment and that they in many cases have the money and buying things, e.g. like an apc 40 plus let's say a mopho instead of saving a bit and using that money first for a good monitor and then investing into the toys... at some later point...

[SubFunk]

+1

Great idea about standardising the -14 dB bit. Problem is how do you regulate it?

There are a lot of people making music at home pushing it hard. However there are not too many people making films at home that are getting public exposure in the same way without regulation.

You can't tbh, also all music isn't meant to be the same volume, I don't stick on Robert Johnson and expect him to be the same volume as Nine Inch Nails and I don't want a standard because of that. I know things are heading towards everything being the same volume, but my music collection isn't made up purely by modern music.
It'll al change the moment a huge band or producer decides to go against the trend, sells millions of records and everyone will suddenly follow.

word!

why on earth everything has to be the same volume? that is freakin' nonsense... it has to be sounding good and making music a pleasure to listen to.

[hurlingdervish]

but if we are indeed referring to an older guy with a couple thousand dollars floating around at any given time then yea

BUY SOME FECKIN MONITORSSSS

i am sorry for using that kind of language, but you are saying buying and having a good set of monitors needs thousands of dollars, is just plain stupid!
and a cheap excuse not to care about it...

besides i referred to and said that most have a wrong priority of investment and that they in many cases have the money and buying things, e.g. like an apc 40 plus let's say a mopho instead of saving a bit and using that money first for a good monitor and then investing into the toys... at some later point...

no....im not saying monitors cost that much...sheesh
if you have thousands of dollars to spend then it is kind of ridiculous you cant buy monitors

[SubFunk]

but if we are indeed referring to an older guy with a couple thousand dollars floating around at any given time then yea

BUY SOME FECKIN MONITORSSSS

i am sorry for using that kind of language, but you are saying buying and having a good set of monitors needs thousands of dollars, is just plain stupid!
and a cheap excuse not to care about it...

besides i referred to and said that most have a wrong priority of investment and that they in many cases have the money and buying things, e.g. like an apc 40 plus let's say a mopho instead of saving a bit and using that money first for a good monitor and then investing into the toys... at some later point...

no....im not saying monitors cost that much...sheesh
if you have thousands of dollars to spend then it is kind of ridiculous you cant buy monitors

oops .... sorry mate!

misunderstood you there.