Guitar tones and Eq help

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
zazamoth
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Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by zazamoth » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:03 pm

Hi folks I was wondering if anyone could help?

I'm having some problems with guitar tones and the Eq on certain tracks
I'm Using Abelton Live 7 & guitar Rig 2 (I cant use an amp where I am, which is what I would prefer) So I'm stuck with Guitar Rig 2

So here's the problem, I am recording an with an industrial band and some of the guitar is quite heavy at times, this track is played in Drop D

The D string is muted with the A string and Mid D string being played as normal.

Now I can get the high end fine and the low end ok when it's needed but the middle is not standing out in the mix at all.

For example: The Muted D string is played twice and then the A string, but the A is muddy and buried in the mix

Can anyone help me?

I have tried a few guitar settings on the actual guitar pots but nothing seems to be helping

any help would be greatly appreciated

Many thanks

zazamoth
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Ed J
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by Ed J » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:07 pm

Have you had a listen to it competely dry of fx? Sometimes a bad string can make the tone drop horribly, used to happen to me loads: This is especially the case if you use super- or -power slinkys, in my experience, something about those fuckers just seems to haemmorage tone when you get a naff one!
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H20nly
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by H20nly » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:09 pm

sounds like you need to make room for it. find out what can you cut or even remove. maybe another instrument or sound is hogging the space.

zazamoth
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by zazamoth » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:12 pm

Ed J wrote:Have you had a listen to it competely dry of fx? Sometimes a bad string can make the tone drop horribly, used to happen to me loads: This is especially the case if you use super- or -power slinkys, in my experience, something about those fuckers just seems to haemmorage tone when you get a naff one!
Hi Ed j, thanks for answering,

~Yeah I have had a listen to Di trakcs they sounded quite good, the strings are new-ish but they have been played a little and allowed to settle (but to be honest I would have liked better strings) but they sound ok dry. could it be a better quality of string is needed?

Oh and I should have mentioned the strings are 10's

~edit: spelling again
Last edited by zazamoth on Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zazamoth
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by zazamoth » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:17 pm

H20nly wrote:sounds like you need to make room for it. find out what can you cut or even remove. maybe another instrument or sound is hogging the space.
Hi H20nly

Cheers for answering mate,

Yeah one of the tracks is quite busy, but the one I'm working on just now during the chorus a lot of the other instruments drop out leaving just the drums, the guitars, vocals and a single synth in the back ground..there are a few takes of the guitar, I have tried removing but it still sounded muddy. I even changed the Synth to High end and then low end to try and make room.

lol I think I might need more practice with Eq's

~edit I even solo'ed the guitars and they still sounded muddy..I still have the Di's though
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by nathannn » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:35 pm

can you post the track?
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zazamoth
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by zazamoth » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:39 pm

nathannn wrote:can you post the track?

Ahh No Sorry, I'm not at that computer and it doesn't have the net..I wish I could! I was thinking that before I posted this..it's a bit of a Hail Mary this post really, Cos I'm quite stuck.

Oh meant to say thank you for answering!

I think I just need to pick up some general tips..on Eq..It's not my strong point on the Digital format..I'm much better at it on a "real world Device" for some reason.
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Sage
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by Sage » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:29 pm

Try tracking it a couple of times and then dedicate one to treble & bass and another for mids.

zazamoth
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by zazamoth » Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:50 pm

Sage wrote:Try tracking it a couple of times and then dedicate one to treble & bass and another for mids.
Sir, my hat is off to you..I dont know why I didn't think of that.. I used to do that! thank you mate, I have double tracked it at the moment but didn't think to 3rd it. shows what a lack of sleep can do.

So thank you mate.

Does anyone know of a good online resource about Eq? I tried the whole google thing but it came back with some amount of..well lets just say it wasn't very good!
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by Sage » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:01 pm

zazamoth wrote:
Sage wrote:Try tracking it a couple of times and then dedicate one to treble & bass and another for mids.
Sir, my hat is off to you..I dont know why I didn't think of that.. I used to do that! thank you mate, I have double tracked it at the moment but didn't think to 3rd it. shows what a lack of sleep can do.

So thank you mate.

Does anyone know of a good online resource about Eq? I tried the whole google thing but it came back with some amount of..well lets just say it wasn't very good!
Don't know anywhere online that actually gives useful advice about about EQing, usually get a few people on forums who know what they are doing.
Unfortunately I don't use software much for guitars, so can't you much there, I'm more used to getting it right at source and picking the appropriate sounds that way.

leedsquietman
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by leedsquietman » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:31 pm

I have GR2 and I think it's gash for distortion with chords, although distortion lead solos are not as bad. Even if you record the sound in 32 bit float at 96 Khz, (which will probably melt your CPU with GR inside Live), with GR2/3/4 in high res mode, it just sounds mushy and horrible with distorted chords if DI'ed and EQ can only partly remedy it.

I don't rate GR4 much better tone wise either, it's a bit more flexible but the distortion tones are really not much better (the new White amp probably has the best overdrive tones in GR though to my ears).

Recording even a 10 watt practice amp with an SM57 sounds better than GR/Amplitube/name your poison. The only other way I've gotten GR2 to sound good was to reamp the DI'ed sound processed through guitar rig, back out to an amp and then using a 421 or SM57 recording the live signal. Or record a clean dry signal micing up your amp then running it through GR, although the sound you hear in your cans or amp, never goes down as clear when you export or mix down the file or the stereo master.

I like GR2 for noodling away, when people are sleeping, through cans, but it's not easy to get distortion sounding good recording wise. The clean sounds are much better.
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H20nly
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by H20nly » Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:51 pm

^ if you record the clean sounds, could you add the distortion as an effect in Live later... maybe?

Ed J
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by Ed J » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:00 pm

H20nly wrote:^ if you record the clean sounds, could you add the distortion as an effect in Live later... maybe?
Never sounds the same, I've never heard an in-box effect that makes pinch sound anywhere like it does running through a ramped up Mode-4, and the live fx are especially un-usable for guitar FX in my experience.
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H20nly
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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by H20nly » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:26 pm

^ :( bummer

What about effects on the mixer? run it out as a clean signal and then back through using onboard effects?

OR

run it through an amp head and into the PC?? - skip GR all together.

All the guitar parts we use on our tracks are done with an acoustic. If you heard the tracks you would both believe it and not believe it at the same time... rock/hip-hop electro blues funk or some such. The guitar player won't even buy new strings unless I ride his ass long enough and offer to chip in. Somehow its become part of our sound... +1 for working with whats available eh?

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Re: Guitar tones and Eq help

Post by Ed J » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:28 pm

^^^ haha, sounds about right on the strings front, hence that being the first thing I mentioned with the whole sound-loss thing :D

Amp head to PC would be my bet, if the amp is a non-combo or has a decent FX loop out!
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