What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

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davepermen
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by davepermen » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:06 am

starving student wrote:btw, I'm no grandpa, so it couldn't be grandpa talk, I'm one of those youngsters not afraid of the past which is why I sound like an old soul around here, you shouldn't be afraid of the past either, it's where wisdom
comes from.

nothing I posted in this thread has anything to do with being against effects, what I posted has to do with the mediocrity across all genres
and how technology is a driving force behind it in this day and age.

doesn't matter what area you're talking about, that's why there's less dynamics in music today, that's why the medium we use to listen to music is of less quaulity, that's why there's more emphasis on programming than musicianship
technology was always a driving force. why rock bands? because electro guitars made them possible (and mics, and amplifiers and such). hiphop? same. electronica? same. pop, at any place? same. etc.

even old music was about technology. you always need instruments somehow.

and quite a lot of music and performances of today will be memorable in the future. i know, personally, that i never forget the live set of deadmau5 that summer at nature one. some of the most amazing music and performance in one, was very very inspiring for me for my future.

i know quite some other memorable music of 'our times'. technology allows sound to evolve, and we go with it and create trends.
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.

H20nly
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by H20nly » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:15 am

Machinesworking wrote:
H20nly wrote: Kraftwerk are influential. OK, but don't let their influence blind you to the rest of the puzzle.
Not the point, the simple basic point is certain groups influence and create whole genres. Again, Kraftwerk, Black Sabbath, The Ramones, Kool Herc/Grandmaster Flash, TG..... Electronic music, Metal, Punk, Hip Hop, and Industrial. These groups aren't minor influences, these are huge ground breaking core genres. Again, you're debating air here, no one ever said Kraftwerk were the ONLY major music group of the last 40 years, just that they are a core influence on whole genres of music.

Jesus? this isn't even some intellectual wankery, this is basic shit. Are you going to deny the influence of James Brown or Parliment next? Again, if you don't know who James Brown is or what his influence is on modern music, it shows a lack of basic understanding of music history. :P
you might as well be saying that if someone doesn't have a knowledge of Mongols then they don't have a basic understanding of World History. Or if they don't know about Czechoslovakia being split that they don't posses a basic understanding of current events.

Rocks in a pond. Argue this shit with a Country & Western fan or a Classical composer. Tell it to a bagpipe player in Scotland or Cuban drummer during the Conga.

This is what was said:
Machinesworking wrote:
gjm wrote:
citizenchris099 wrote:if you ask me Kraftwerk are probably one of the most influential groups of the 20th century.
:lol: I never heard of Kraftwerk until 2008, and I still have never listened one of their tunes
That's not something to be proud of.
Personally I think it's important to have at least a basic understanding of the history of modern music.
to which I replied:
H20nly wrote:How does knowing who Kraftwerk is give you a basic understanding of the history of modern music?

OR

How does not knowing who Kraftwerk is mean you lack a basic understanding of the history of modern music?

I still fail to see how that man can lack a basic understanding of modern music history by not knowing about one group that you particularly like or are influenced by.

What if a Jane's Addiction fan said that about them? How about an NWA fan? NAS? Kanye? - what if all his fans said it? Chemical Brothers? Neptunes? Its all perspective and depends on how big your world HIStory is.

Next time you have a mic in your hand yell "everyone who was influenced by Kraftwerk stand on this side" and see what happens.

Then do it somewhere completely different.

Then again.

and again...

Eventually their will be a pattern and you'll see a niche. You are part of that niche. Congratulations.

Some hard core Ramons, Black Sabbath, Rolling Stones, Steve Vai, Stevie Ray Vauhn fan skimmed right over the little page or 2 about Kraftwerk in his Modern Music History book and got an A- in that class. Maybe the college should get their credits back. :roll:

Da hand
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by Da hand » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:24 am

starving student wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:

Jesus? this isn't even some intellectual wankery, this is basic shit. Are you going to deny the influence of James Brown or Parliment next? Again, if you don't know who James Brown is or what his influence is on modern music, it shows a lack of basic understanding of music history. :P
thankyou

@ dahand, ritchie hawtin doesn't even come close to any of the other influential artist being discussed, that's all that's being said, and thats
especially of interest since he's taken full advantage of all of this futuristic tech we have at our disposal so he should be at least 50% as influential right? this technology hasn't helped anyone be as influential as the beatles, michael jackson, kraftwerk, hell even the wutang clan is more influential than ritchie hawtin.
Ok, you asked for electronic music, so why do you go back to referring to Beatles, Michael Jackson, etc. I specifically said also techno music. Who do you consider more influential than Richie Hawtin to the shape of techno music today? please respond to this question.

Ok, but if you insist on confusing things, I'll throw you a bone. Of course, everything that comes before is going to have some fleeting influence, but the Beatles have had no strong influence on genres other than rock and pop. Classical music didn't suddenly whittle down to a four piece rock/pop band. They didn't offer anything directly influential to electronic music. Do you hear the Beatles' influence in today's electronic music? I don't.

How is Michael Jackson's contribution to music greater than Richie Hawtin's for example. How did Micheal Jackson change the face of music? How was the music before Michael Jackson and how was it influenced directly by him after? I don't see it. And other artists saying he was an influence is not enough. Also, do not confuse popularity with influence.

Kraftwerk was extremely influential at their time but they are not changing the shape of music these days.

Machinesworking
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:48 am

H20nly wrote: I still fail to see how that man can lack a basic understanding of modern music history by not knowing about one group that you particularly like or are influenced by.

I'm not that influenced by Kraftwerk, I just acknowledge them as one of only a few who pioneered electronic music. I'm not that influenced by the Ramones, but to deny that a whole genre, not some niche, but a whole category of rock music was formed around basic musical concepts they came up with would be ridiculous.
What if a Jane's Addiction fan said that about them? How about an NWA fan? NAS? Kanye? - what if all his fans said it? Chemical Brothers? Neptunes? Its all perspective and depends on how big your world HIStory is.
Only NWA arguably is responsible for a whole genre of music there, and even they aren't as core to rap as Grandmaster Flash, while Kraftwerk are core to basically all electronic rock/pop music, even Hip Hop.
Next time you have a mic in your hand yell "everyone who was influenced by Kraftwerk stand on this side" and see what happens.
Again, as a musician, one who might like or be influenced by electronic music, hip hop etc. to deny Kraftwerks place in history, or argue against it is silly.
Fans and music listeners are a different story, plenty of them only like what is popular at the time, that's not musical growth.


Eventually their will be a pattern and you'll see a niche. You are part of that niche. Congratulations.

Some hard core Ramons, Black Sabbath, Rolling Stones, Steve Vai, Stevie Ray Vauhn fan skimmed right over the little page or 2 about Kraftwerk in his Modern Music History book and got an A- in that class. Maybe the college should get their credits back. :roll:
All of this is camouflage, Kraftwerk are responsible for a whole macro genre, to not know about them, or care is to be ignorant. Plenty of 4.0 idiots out there, don't be one, and don't defend people being one. Just my opinion.

Every musician I really like has wide ranging and varied taste in music, YRMV. :wink:

gjm
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by gjm » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:16 am

Machinesworking wrote: All of this is camouflage, Kraftwerk are responsible for a whole macro genre, to not know about them, or care is to be ignorant.
Oh my my :roll:
iMac - 10.10.3 - Live 9 Suite - APC40 - Axiom 61 - TX81z - Firestudio Mobile - Focal Alpha 80's - Godin Session - Home made foot controller

starving student
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by starving student » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:39 am

Da hand wrote:
starving student wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:

Jesus? this isn't even some intellectual wankery, this is basic shit. Are you going to deny the influence of James Brown or Parliment next? Again, if you don't know who James Brown is or what his influence is on modern music, it shows a lack of basic understanding of music history. :P
thankyou

@ dahand, ritchie hawtin doesn't even come close to any of the other influential artist being discussed, that's all that's being said, and thats
especially of interest since he's taken full advantage of all of this futuristic tech we have at our disposal so he should be at least 50% as influential right? this technology hasn't helped anyone be as influential as the beatles, michael jackson, kraftwerk, hell even the wutang clan is more influential than ritchie hawtin.
Ok, you asked for electronic music, so why do you go back to referring to Beatles, Michael Jackson, etc. I specifically said also techno music. Who do you consider more influential than Richie Hawtin to the shape of techno music today? please respond to this question.

Ok, but if you insist on confusing things, I'll throw you a bone. Of course, everything that comes before is going to have some fleeting influence, but the Beatles have had no strong influence on genres other than rock and pop. Classical music didn't suddenly whittle down to a four piece rock/pop band. They didn't offer anything directly influential to electronic music. Do you hear the Beatles' influence in today's electronic music? I don't.

How is Michael Jackson's contribution to music greater than Richie Hawtin's for example. How did Micheal Jackson change the face of music? How was the music before Michael Jackson and how was it influenced directly by him after? I don't see it. And other artists saying he was an influence is not enough. Also, do not confuse popularity with influence.

Kraftwerk was extremely influential at their time but they are not changing the shape of music these days.
going backwards on this, you're saying that kraftwerk was only influential
at their time hahaha, they've influenced any electronic musician you can pull out of your hat including ritchie hawtin, they're beyond relevant at this time, they're influence will be relevant 10 years from now, this last
kraftwerk statement you've made makes my point more than anything I could say......you just don't know it.

michael jackson, you're going to tell me that michael jackson hasn't been influential again I must hahahaha, do you know what is the most popular music on earth, its pop music do you know who the most influential pop artist is in earths history..........take a guess. and in 60 years he'll still be the most influential artist of pop music and he's influenced others as well. I wasn't even comparing michael jackson or the other genres
to ritchie hawtin, just kraftwerk, but you have the balls to say that ritchie hawtin is more influential than michael jackson....WOW

I wasn't confusing anything I only brought up the artist from the other genres to help you understand the level of influence we are talking about here with kraftwerk, we are definitly not talking about deadmau5 level :lol:
look I challenged you to come up with an electronic music artist, I don't care what subgenre of electronic music of today that is as influential as kraftwerk, lets stay on track

h20 you're jumping off the deep end splatter shots my work in paintball but
not on a post where you can read everything clearly. come on you brought up
the mongols to Czechoslovakia to bagpipes, I don't think that it needs to be said but maybe it does, this whole discussion is based on a context that
everyone understands, it's not as loose as you make it out to be,

8O
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by 8O » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:42 am

Machinesworking wrote:All of this is kraftwerk, Camouflage are responsible for a whole macro genre, to not know about them, or care is to be ignorant.
Fixed.
Image

Da hand
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by Da hand » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:08 am

starving student wrote:
going backwards on this, you're saying that kraftwerk was only influential
at their time hahaha, they've influenced any electronic musician you can pull out of your hat including ritchie hawtin, they're beyond relevant at this time, they're influence will be relevant 10 years from now, this last
kraftwerk statement you've made makes my point more than anything I could say......you just don't know it.
Unfortunately, you really do not understand your own question. You can always go back and back and back to any predecessor of any genre we know today or the first person recognized as "inventing" a style of music and say that person was the influence on all others.

Yes Kraftwerk is a predecessor of all that came after them. No one is arguing this at all and there really is no point to do so because we know that they were there at the beginning when no one else was doing this type of music. They influenced countless others and new forms of music emerged.

BUT. They are NOT CHANGING the face of music today. This is because anyone can listen to countless other derivations of their influence (techno, house, etc) and be equally or even more influenced then if they were listening to Kraftwerk. Why? because things have moved on. The people who have pushed things way beyond what Kraftwerk could even imagine have already influenced countless others. Going back to Kraftwerk as the only influence on today's electronic music is just plain wrong.

So yes, I am saying it again. Richie Hawtin is CHANGING the face of techno music today. Kraftwerk is NOT CHANGING the face of techno music today. Show me even how Kraftwerk has changed the music we hear in the last ten years? Kraftwerk hasn't. Others have.

Of course, I am not arguing who has the greatest contribution in the history of electronic music overall. I am arguing about who is exerting an influence on the current changes in electronic music and more specifically techno music.
starving student wrote:
michael jackson, you're going to tell me that michael jackson hasn't been influential again I must hahahaha, do you know what is the most popular music on earth, its pop music do you know who the most influential pop artist is in earths history..........take a guess. and in 60 years he'll still be the most influential artist of pop music and he's influenced others as well. I wasn't even comparing michael jackson or the other genres
to ritchie hawtin, just kraftwerk, but you have the balls to say that ritchie hawtin is more influential than michael jackson....WOW
I had a feeling you would respond this way. Your answer shows me absolutely nothing about how he actually changed pop music. Saying that he is popular doesn't make him influential in terms of changing the shape of music. Again, show me specific examples of how Michael Jackson has influenced pop music and how his contribution has been any greater than any other pop star out there? What new trends did he bring with him? What styles emerged because of him?

citizenchris099
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by citizenchris099 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:53 pm

Da hand wrote:
starving student wrote:
Machinesworking wrote:

Jesus? this isn't even some intellectual wankery, this is basic shit. Are you going to deny the influence of James Brown or Parliment next? Again, if you don't know who James Brown is or what his influence is on modern music, it shows a lack of basic understanding of music history. :P
thankyou

@ dahand, ritchie hawtin doesn't even come close to any of the other influential artist being discussed, that's all that's being said, and thats
especially of interest since he's taken full advantage of all of this futuristic tech we have at our disposal so he should be at least 50% as influential right? this technology hasn't helped anyone be as influential as the beatles, michael jackson, kraftwerk, hell even the wutang clan is more influential than ritchie hawtin.
Ok, you asked for electronic music, so why do you go back to referring to Beatles, Michael Jackson, etc. I specifically said also techno music. Who do you consider more influential than Richie Hawtin to the shape of techno music today? please respond to this question.

Ok, but if you insist on confusing things, I'll throw you a bone. Of course, everything that comes before is going to have some fleeting influence, but the Beatles have had no strong influence on genres other than rock and pop. Classical music didn't suddenly whittle down to a four piece rock/pop band. They didn't offer anything directly influential to electronic music. Do you hear the Beatles' influence in today's electronic music? I don't.

How is Michael Jackson's contribution to music greater than Richie Hawtin's for example. How did Micheal Jackson change the face of music? How was the music before Michael Jackson and how was it influenced directly by him after? I don't see it. And other artists saying he was an influence is not enough. Also, do not confuse popularity with influence.

Kraftwerk was extremely influential at their time but they are not changing the shape of music these days.
Richie Hawtin has or will do nothing Juan Atkins or Derrick May hadn't already done. Might not be the mos popular thing to point out but its the truth. Juan invented an entire genre of music practically by himself (like Kool Herc before him w/Hip Hop) but it was others who brought it to the suburbs and the mainstream. So lets do the math here. Richie is directly influenced by the Detroit pioneers like Juan Atkins. Juan has cited time and time again in countless interviews how influential Kraftwerk was to his music. Nuff said on the Hawtin argument.

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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by Kilroy » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:48 pm

I came here looking for a Mac vs. PC flame war. Why is everyone arguing about some German 80s band?

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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by pulsoc » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:29 pm

Kilroy wrote:I came here looking for a Mac vs. PC flame war. Why is everyone arguing about some German 80s band?
I was just wondering this myself.

We need a good Kraftwork vs. Mac thread.

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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by H20nly » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:29 pm

Kilroy wrote:I came here looking for a Mac vs. PC flame war. Why is everyone arguing about some German 80s band?
What do you mean some German 80's band? You obviously don't know anything at all about modern music history :roll:


Careful. You've GOT to love em as if they are the only ones who did anything of that kind. Like the Ramones you know? so fucking creative :roll: I mean hey ho lets go its not as if their friends were playing anything even remotely close to what they were doing.

You have to treat them as if their style spontaneously burst into existence because their is no way they were being influenced by anything going on around them.

Nobody didn't use a Mac before Kraftwerk. They actually came up with the idea of not using a Mac. If you didn't know that you obviously have no sense of basic computer history :roll: :roll:

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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by pulsoc » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:33 pm

H20nly wrote:
Kilroy wrote:I came here looking for a Mac vs. PC flame war. Why is everyone arguing about some German 80s band?
What do you mean some German 80's band? You obviously don't know anything at all about modern music history :roll:


Careful. You've GOT to love em as if they are the only ones who did anything of that kind. Like the Ramones you know? so fucking creative :roll: I mean hey ho lets go its not as if their friends were playing anything even remotely close to what they were doing.

You have to treat them as if their style spontaneously burst into existence because their is no way they were being influenced by anything going on around them.

Nobody didn't use a Mac before Kraftwerk. They actually came up with the idea of not using a Mac. If you didn't know that you obviously have no sense of basic computer history :roll: :roll:
You better be careful your eyes are going to roll right out of your head.

H20nly
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by H20nly » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:34 pm

you obviously have no sense of basic optical history :wink:


could you pass me my eye?

starving student
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Re: What PRO isn't using a Mac on stage?

Post by starving student » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:57 pm

H20nly wrote:you obviously have no sense of basic optical history :wink:


could you pass me my eye?

:lol: this place is place is better for you being in it H20nly


@da hand: how are you gonna tell me I don't understand my own debate, c'mon
man you're the only one who brought up popularity as the main focus we've been talking about the influence of kraftwerk, now you're trying to act like you've been agreeing all this time and at the same time that we have been talking about something else like the 'current most influential' of todays electronic music artist no no noooooooo, that was your side of the debate, that someone somewhere in electronic music land today is more influential or as influential as kraftwerk, you need to re-read your own post man cause that's what you've been arguing.

do I really need to tell you how influential michael jackson has been, you must be shuckin and jiven... I'll give you one hint that's like 1% of his influence, he influenced the whole boyband girlband era into existence.
please don't say that we're talking about who invented something, nobody ever said that but you, we're talking about influence. michael jackson didn't invent boybands but if you ask any of them from new kids on the block to brittney spears they will cite michael jackson as their primary influence, and that's not even scratching the surface of his influence.
as a matter of fact every single pop artist will cite michael jackson as an
influence. :| you didn't know that?

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