My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

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RCUS
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My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by RCUS » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:40 pm

is killing me. Ableton Live Instant Mappings are like freaking voodoo. I have read a slew of threads here and visited CreateDigitalMusic.com for a great article on how to create a UserConfiguration.txt file for nanoSeries stuff, but I'm still lost as to how I would go about getting the Lock to Control Surface button to work with my APC40 and would love to see if anyone has accomplished this, or has ideas on what I can do with the UserConfiguratin.txt file in X:\User\Application Data\Ableton\Live 8.x.x\Preferences\User Remote Scripts folder.

For reference, I am pasting the UserConfiguration.txt section that I am referring to:

# Buttons used here are expected to not be toggles (i.e., sending
# value 0 every second time you press it).
Bank1Button: -1
Bank2Button: -1
Bank3Button: -1
Bank4Button: -1
Bank5Button: -1
Bank6Button: -1
Bank7Button: -1
Bank8Button: -1
NextBankButton: -1
PrevBankButton: -1

LockButton: -1

My questions:

1) Is this even possible with the APC40?

2) The button on the APC40 I would like to map sends out a note of A4 on MIDI channel 1. The beginning of the UserConfiguration.txt file says you can use MIDI CC's OR MIDI notes - does that apply to this section of the script? If so, how are they supposed to be typed in the 'LockButton' area of the UserConfiguration.txt script? For example, would it be "LockButton: A4 -1" or "LockButton: -1 A4" or "LockButton: A4 0" etc....?

3) For an APC40, am I to use 'USB Audio Device' for the ControllerName input and output sections of the script, or should it be 'APC40'?

4) When I am done with the UserConfiguration.txt, do I place the directory in:

X:\User\Application Data\Ableton\Live 8.x.x\Preferences\User Remote Scripts :?:

or

X:\Program Files\Ableton\Live 8.x.x\Resources\MIDI Remote Scripts :?:

(i've tried both directories and it shows up in both, so which is it?)

4) If mapping this one button to Lock to Control Surface works, can I use a combination of mappings I have already done by selecting TWO control surfaces in the Preferences>MIDI/Sync>Control Surfaces section to use with my APC40? Basically i have a custom mapping that I have put alot of work into and I would hate to have to recreate it all using a UserConfiguration.txt file just to get the Lock to Control Surface button to work.

Thanks to anyone in advance for trying to help out!

and now for a rant: It really makes no sense to me why this feature has not been added as a mappable option yet! For the APC40 it seems to be a necessity for Live Performance use, especially in a DJ setup where you need to see your waveform on one track, but want to control effects that exist on another bus track or on your master. As soon as you click another track to view it, you lose the device control. The Novation Remote SL series has this feature (and I'm guessing other controllers do to) so not being able to Lock down your device control on the Ableton branded APC40 is really weird to me.

Alextronica
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by Alextronica » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:35 am

This probably wont help you much but I thought I'd give you this cause its working for me to see my current track and tweek effects on a different track.

First I put things in racks and navigate the rack so this means I only use the first of the 8 banks of the device controls. With the other 7 I map them to an effect knob per bank so like beat repeat for bank 4. I have all 8 knobs macroed to the repeat/grid knob of my beat repeat rack. One knob for each of the eight tracks. This way I can view say Track 2 and be effecting a repeat and grid of track 6 with knob #6 of Bank 4 of the Device Controls.

Not quite what your looking for with whole script thing but hope this helps.
Black Mac Book 2.16 4gigs of Ram > Ableton 7 Suite > Komplete 5 > APC40 > Novation Remote SL25 > Allen and Heath Xone 92 > Korg Kaoscillator

www.soundcloud.com/Alextronica

RCUS
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by RCUS » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:18 am

Alextronica wrote:This probably wont help you much but I thought I'd give you this cause its working for me to see my current track and tweek effects on a different track.

First I put things in racks and navigate the rack so this means I only use the first of the 8 banks of the device controls. With the other 7 I map them to an effect knob per bank so like beat repeat for bank 4. I have all 8 knobs macroed to the repeat/grid knob of my beat repeat rack. One knob for each of the eight tracks. This way I can view say Track 2 and be effecting a repeat and grid of track 6 with knob #6 of Bank 4 of the Device Controls.

Not quite what your looking for with whole script thing but hope this helps.
If I understand, you are using the shift+1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 to get to hard wired midi assignments/rack devices, which then enables you to say, select track 2 without losing focus on the rack you selected on the device control section of the APC?

I appreciate the alternative, but yes at this point I have so much time invested in perfecting this Live Set that I am hell bent on this Lock to Control Surface button! I will definitely explore your alternative though if I hit an absolute brick wall! Thanks!

Alextronica
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by Alextronica » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:52 am

Yeah totally you got it.

Your way would be killer but I'm just not savvy enough to figure it out at this point.

Best of luck My way works but of coarse there are draw backs. Like if you shift the focus of Live you go back to Bank 1 on the Device Control so you have to press shift and the bank# to get back to the Macro'd effect.

I'll be a fan of your button when you get it going sorry I cant help, maybe some day when I learn more about scripts.
Black Mac Book 2.16 4gigs of Ram > Ableton 7 Suite > Komplete 5 > APC40 > Novation Remote SL25 > Allen and Heath Xone 92 > Korg Kaoscillator

www.soundcloud.com/Alextronica

RCUS
Posts: 277
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by RCUS » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:39 am

Aaaaah! This is making me nuts!!! I know it's possible, I just can't get it to work! I feel like it's right under my nose! I'm sitting here going over every possible combination of global channel and note assignment and it just won't work!

I am seriously pissed at Ableton right now. So uber frustrated I feel like smashing my APC! Fuuuck!

*EDIT: spent about 6 hours on this tonight and I got nothing. I was able to get my Korg nanoPAD to respond to the userconfiguration.txt, but the LockButton would not lock and the Banks would do nothing. Only reason I knew it did anything is that lives control surface MIDI receive lights responded to the CC's I set up in the script for my nanoPAD. Also, when creating these scripts you need to keep in mind each section of the script needs to be filled up. So fir example I had only the LockButton area filled in when I needed the entire Bank section filled in with CC's in order for the userconfiguration.txt to be recognized.

My best guess right now is you need a button that is not a toggle that transmits CC's (not notes) to make this work? I will continue to research but it would be nice if one of the Abes could shed some light on this subject.

concept_control
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by concept_control » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:54 am

Good question, this would be v. handy. It is the only thing I really miss about my Remote SL. I'll have a play about later if I've got a mo, as I figured out a user config for a controller I made (not with the lock but with it's controls auto assigned to rack knobs). Fingers crossed someone can point us in the right direction and I'll have a use for my 2nd footpedal.

You might find that because the APC uses Ableton's magic handshake it circumvents the use of user configs though... Eep.

RCUS
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by RCUS » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:18 pm

concept_control wrote:You might find that because the APC uses Ableton's magic handshake it circumvents the use of user configs though... Eep.
I agree this may be another cause of my problems, however I tried to get the bank area of the script working and it does nothing with my nanoPAD either. It's as if banking and lock just don't work :(

delicioso
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by delicioso » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:57 pm

That's a bummer that APC40 sucks at doing stuff like this.

You may want to check out djsynchro's midi remote script for the Nocturn:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=92935
That one comes with the device lock button pre-mapped so it may help you get a better clue.

RCUS
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by RCUS » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:02 am

delicioso wrote:That's a bummer that APC40 sucks at doing stuff like this.

You may want to check out djsynchro's midi remote script for the Nocturn:
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=92935
That one comes with the device lock button pre-mapped so it may help you get a better clue.
I see nothing in my script that is characteristically different or wrong compared to his...HOWEVER delicioso, you may have given me enough of a clue that could be the smoking gun in this whole issue for those of us that own Novation Automap products....NOVATION AUTOMAP might be the culprit?! I wonder if Automap somehow "hogs" the banking controls and lockbutton? I know that all the Novation Automap products rely heavily on banking between device options and I know my RemoteSL comes with a Lock to Control Device button already hard wired, so I wonder if I just exit out of Automap, if that is the issue!

I won't be able to try it out till tomorrow night most likely but I think you may be onto something. I've read a few complaints here that the LockButton script "just doesn't work" - so I wonder if this is why?

RCUS
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by RCUS » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:49 am

Jesus tap dancing Christ. Automap has nothing to do with it either, tested it tonight. I am utterly stumped and have now resorted to trying to learn enough about Python scripting to see if maybe I can Jack a line of code from my RemoteSL and insert it into the code for the APC.

In the meantime, if anyone else has been successfull creating a working LockButton using userconfiguration.txt I would love to hear how you do it because it refuses to work for me.

delicioso
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by delicioso » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:00 pm

RCUS wrote:I am utterly stumped and have now resorted to trying to learn enough about Python scripting to see if maybe I can Jack a line of code from my RemoteSL and insert it into the code for the APC.
This might help: A Byte of Python
http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python

RCUS
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by RCUS » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:13 pm

delicioso wrote:
RCUS wrote:I am utterly stumped and have now resorted to trying to learn enough about Python scripting to see if maybe I can Jack a line of code from my RemoteSL and insert it into the code for the APC.
This might help: A Byte of Python
http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python

thanks delicioso - i am starting to read it now. its 110 pages which makes me a little nervous considering I have no scripting background, but the preface says its geared toward people like me so we'll see..... i will post here if it works out!

in the meantime if anyone figures this out PLEASE let us know!

RCUS
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by RCUS » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:41 pm

well that was time well spent, by saving me some time.

I just read up on Python using the link to the book and the internet's, and here's the scoop:
Basically, the files that Ableton uses for its Control Surface instant mappings, are .pyc files - a.k.a. COMPILED Python files. Compiled Python files (.pyc) are different from Python files (.py) in that have been converted for your computer to use (as binary code).

Unfortunately with Compiled Python files, it's a one way street. Even if I could take say the RemoteSL.pyc file from the X:\Program Files\Ableton\Live 8.0.4\Resources\MIDI Remote Scripts folder, and then decompile the RemoteSL.pyc file using a decompiler (or the python disassemble module), all that is going to do is allow me to SEE whats in the .pyc file. I would still need to either rewrite the functions in python (which would probably take me weeks to learn) or I would need access to the original .py (python file) from Akai/Novation/Ableton to be able to somehow merge the two, then recompile into the .pyc format for Ableton/my PC to use. This would also entail a very deep understanding of Python. By the time I would be adept in Python, i'm guessing Max4Live will be out and will fix the issue.

I'm also guessing Ableton/Akai isn't going to just give up their .py files considering that's where this "magic handshake" happens for the APC40.

For my final attempt, I am going to try to use a standard MIDI controller (my Roland MC 505) to verify that this LockButton function just doesn't freaking work! I also have an email out to Ableton support, though i'm guessing their response is going to have an advertisment for M4Live somewhere in it....LOL! At this point i'd buy 5 freaking copies of Max4Live just to finally put this to bed, damn!

thanks again for the link delicioso!

RCUS
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by RCUS » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:28 am

It's a bug.

After trying USB MIDI controllers, regular MIDI controllers, and virtual MIDI controllers, I finally tried the LockButton script in 7.0.15 and it worked perfectly. Saving the same 7.0.15 file out and opening in 8.0.5 shows that there clearly is a bug because 8.0.5 stops recognizing only the line of code for LockButton and nothing happens.

Nothing like wasting 20hrs of troubleshooting and finding it's a freaking bug! Ugh! Off to bug reporting...

spanda
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Re: My quest for a LOCK TO CONTROL SURFACE button for my APC40..

Post by spanda » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:31 pm

RCUS wrote:It's a bug.

After trying USB MIDI controllers, regular MIDI controllers, and virtual MIDI controllers, I finally tried the LockButton script in 7.0.15 and it worked perfectly. Saving the same 7.0.15 file out and opening in 8.0.5 shows that there clearly is a bug because 8.0.5 stops recognizing only the line of code for LockButton and nothing happens.

Nothing like wasting 20hrs of troubleshooting and finding it's a freaking bug! Ugh! Off to bug reporting...
Bug fixed hopefully???? http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=131269

Will have a go at this as soon as time permits...
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