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 Post subject: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:02 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 704
First off, I love Ableton, but this is really bugging me so much. I maybe compounding a few other peoples thoughts i hope also.

AFAIK the "new" transient system is incomplete because the SCRUB TOOL doesnt actually scrub. All it does is play from its start point,dictated by the quantize resolution.It then loops the whole clip till you press the spacebar.
The QUANTIZE value, more often than not, bears no relation to where the transients may fall in a given loop, and thus provides an IRRELEVANT time base for auditioning/scrubbing through transients.
I dont consider this to be scrubbing or auditioning, but just very basic and unwieldy synchronized monitoring of clips.
This is not useful for any kind of accurate and repetitive auditioning of transients needed for editing properly.

To not be able to hear each transient in isolation before slicing to midi is possibly a workflow oversight on the part of the designers in my opinion.
It basically forces you to have to check through each transient TWICE.
First in the clip view (the guess work before slicing), then again in the sampler afterwards (the actual work of auditioning slices).After correcting in the sampler I am then left with an INCORRECT midi file!
When you have 16 or more slices this is extremely tiresome and prevents quick,accurate slicing and playback. Just try slicing a busy old break and u will see what i mean.
I know everyone uses Ableton differently and that is great, but I cant see this as any sort of improvement on recycle, which is from the last century.In fact its more like having HALF of recycle bolted onto ableton.



I have suggested the use of ALT as a modifier to play from the nearest left transient marker with the scrub tool, and for it to play the transient in "focus". This would ensure much more resilient slicing and midi file creation.

I would love for this problem to be addressed by anyone who cares, as I do very much, and wish to see the program become everything we ever need which it ALMOST is.

Am i right to suggest that the current transient system is incomplete?

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ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:48 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Posts: 6532
what happens if you turn quantize off


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:45 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 704
starving student wrote:
what happens if you turn quantize off



It will loop like a machine gun for as long as the scrub tool is clicked and held. This is useless. When you let go it "runs off" in to the loop, providing more uselessness vis a vis scrubbing.

For me it simply needs the option to stop playback at the next marker.

_________________
ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:56 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:21 am
Posts: 8804
Location: Amsterdam
what you're asking for is not really a shortcoming of the scrubtool but a totally new feature..
it is indeed very useful how Recycle lets you audition each slice by just clicking on it..
but I guess that's the difference here; what you see in the clipview are not slices, its just one sample with timemarkers..

how hard is it to just slice the loop to a rack and audition the slices right away?


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:38 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 704
But it is the scrub tool that we use to audition slices in recycle. Recycle is the first transient editor and uses "scrub" to do this, but ableton wont for their transient system? why? I wouldnt call it a useful feature, but absolutely essential.
You have made something clear to me about what i see in clip view-a representaion of a slice. But if you can mark it, surely you can set playback from the marker with some coding or whatever magic they know(lol).

Poster wrote:
how hard is it to just slice the loop to a rack and audition the slices right away?


Not hard. And this is exactly the problem! you see the midi file it creates? If i go to edit the slices on the sampler and move start and end points to get nice slices, that midifile becomes "irrelevant" because the original performance information is lost.
Need to hear slice, then slice!
Its like being asked to prepare a vegetable blindfolded and then have the blindfold taken off.
Its chopped all funny, and wont fit in the pan neatly as expected!

_________________
ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:54 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:21 am
Posts: 8804
Location: Amsterdam
dna598 wrote:
Poster wrote:
how hard is it to just slice the loop to a rack and audition the slices right away?


Not hard. And this is exactly the problem! you see the midi file it creates? If i go to edit the slices on the sampler and move start and end points to get nice slices, that midifile becomes "irrelevant" because the original performance information is lost.
Need to hear slice, then slice!
Its like being asked to prepare a vegetable blindfolded and then have the blindfold taken off.
Its chopped all funny, and wont fit in the pan neatly as expected!

aah.. wait.. are you using the build in 'Slice to Warp Marker" preset when you slice to new MIDI track?
that'll give you perfect cut slices, when you set the warpmarkers ok of course..

just double click in the warpmarker area at the beginning of each transient to add a new marker..
then slice to MIDI and use the Warp Marker preset in the Slice dialog..

perfect slices ready to go!


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:17 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 704
thanks for the tip,
I know all the ways to chop the clip in ableton....but i guess its just my preference to be able to hear what i am slicing before slicing it. The whole point of recycle was to capture the groove and its constituent single hits with great accuracy.We are not allowed this fine editing precision.

For example (and i really hope you understand me!). I like to place markers around clicks and pops and generally troublesome flams in old breaks and simply delete them in the midi.I am not being allowed to auditon the snare sound to perfection AND also ensure its timing rigidity by slicing/saving AFTERWARDS.

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ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:44 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 704
BUMP

I intend to kick up a serious fuss about this!
If anyone feels the same i urge you to respond in order to persuade them to add a proper slice scrub/audition. Its seems criminal not being able to choose what you want to hear when it comes to slicing.

_________________
ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:18 pm 

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 2:21 pm
Posts: 1077
Location: Paris
U can use Recycle, Live is compatible with .Rex files.


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:29 pm 

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 704
Thanks for the reply, haha. Are you joking?
Dont you think Ableton should provide enough facilities to forget recycle for good? They think they have, but i am pointing out that they certainly have not. You are helping me in that regard though, so thanks.

Its a bit weird to think that 15 years on, this innovative company cant get this right.

_________________
ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:50 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:21 am
Posts: 8804
Location: Amsterdam
@ dna598

you can make all the fuzz you want but the slice feature was never advertised as it would replace Recycle..
blaming Ableton you can't audition slices as you can in Recycle is just, ermmm, stupid..
there are a lot of other features Live doesn't have, but you can't blaim them can you?..

if you want this feature > viewforum.php?f=3


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:11 pm 

Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:21 am
Posts: 8804
Location: Amsterdam
nvrmnd..


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:41 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 704
@ Poster

so lemme get this straight. You think ableton should keep their transient editing feature set behind a 15 year old program? YOu think i am stupid to to expect ableton to implement technology that has existed for this long?
You expect Ableton to be happy to let this OLD prog retain its place as the transient editor of choice for lots of people like me? After the BIG DEAL of the new transient editing in LIVE this year (A.D 2009)?

I am guessing you dont need to chop beats so much anyway.If you do,perhaps you dont need as much precision as me or others i work with.

I am not blaming ableton, I am trying to notify them of something. And i would rather you helped instead of shoot me down.

The rex format is only still here because recycle is the de facto slicing prog and Propellerheads KNOW IT. THats why they dont licence out the rex format for other progs to create inside them.
Perhaps If ableton DID think about taking recycle on properly we would see more libraries in live clip format and we can kiss goodbye to recycle and propheads eh???

I cant see ableton not wanting this scene being acted out.

BTW I dont even use rex libraries, I just want to set markers, audition, and slice, in that order. I will then be left with correct midi file, the correct slices, and the correct SOUND and GROOVE. THen I may fuck it all up, BUT ONLY IF I CHOOSE TO. Not by some quirky workflow in the program.

_________________
ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:03 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:50 am
Posts: 2629
i can't see where anyone in this thread has been trying to "shoot you down"...

you seem to be getting all aggressive because there isn't some massive outcry for the feature that you want...

there's a feature you'd like, so request it... you're not doing your cause any favours by putting the boot into other forum peeps...


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 Post subject: Re: Transient editing in Ableton : Incomplete
PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:21 am 

Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:42 am
Posts: 704
Poster wrote:
@ dna598

you can make all the fuzz you want but the slice feature was never advertised as it would replace Recycle..
blaming Ableton you can't audition slices as you can in Recycle is just, ermmm, stupid..
there are a lot of other features Live doesn't have, but you can't blaim them can you?..

if you want this feature > viewforum.php?f=3


well this guy says I am stupid so forgive me for taking a slightly disconcerted tone. I only want a proper discussion.

Dont you agree with me on this subject?
As you took the time to read and reply, May i ask what your opinions are on the many points I have tried to make regarding this?

_________________
ctrl + left/right = select transient

ctrl + shift + left/right = select between transients

ctrl + space = play selection


Top
 Profile  
 
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