Max for Live - first impressions?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
nebulae
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by nebulae » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:36 pm

Couldn't agree more with OP. I don't care how much Max costs, and I don't care how much current users will get pissed off. There should be a way for me to step into this program world in tiers, just like there was with the Suite. I don't know how much of a programmer I am, but ultimately, I'm a music producer. Where I start to tinker more than make music, the tool is more harm than good. So I want to see how much I would use this tool.

The best way to get a user like me is to offer functionality without the ability to edit. A Pluggo-4-Live, so to speak. If I like that enough, then I will be enticed to buy.

At $300, just five months after I spend $300 to upgrade to Suite 8, and then looking at another upgrade in a few months to Live 9. I just can't do it. The price of entry is too high for me to even try.
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ethios4
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by ethios4 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:37 pm

Rave wrote:I have said this from the beginning - they should have a cheap run time plugin and an app store where authors can sell or distribute their creations
+1 !!!!! PLEASE!!!!

3phase
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by 3phase » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:38 pm

4/4 wrote:
gp23 wrote:An 'app store' is a terrible idea.
I think ushering people into the idea of selling patches is pretty repulsive.

I think ushering honest patchers into the idea to feed lurking culture vultures with more classy presets and algorythms and make them even pay for that is pretty repulsive..

there is to much generic music out there allready.. it dont helps to feed this kind of pseudo producers with clever semi random seq manipulators aso..
its like delivering nukes to 3rd world countrys.. not a good idea at all
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ethios4
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by ethios4 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:42 pm

Nothing at all wrong with selling apps, IMO. It takes a huge amount of time an know how to make an application and I'm happy to pay someone to do what I am unwilling to do. Capitalism has been the greatest engine of innovation in the history of humankind. I also pay for my food, electricity, car, Live, etc, so I'm in neck-deep already. So, how does one connect to the internet for free anyway? Somebody's paying for it you know....

synnack
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by synnack » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:44 pm

I have been thinking and talking with M4L beta testers about the idea of a "free or low cost runtime" and how to possibly sell and distribute devices for a while now as part of building my website - http://www.maxforlive.com

Shameless plug = http://www.maxforlive.com is a user community-driven resource where you can share devices you create, and use devices that other people create.

One good point that people have made to me is that a "community" of sharing REQUIRES both ends. A community of free devices can only exist if people not only download and use but share their own.

Right this minute there are over 120 registered users and only 9 devices shared by only 5 users. As a device developer who may have spent months building a complicated, one of a kind, effect, do I share it to a community who does not give me anything back? I think a lot of people are thinking this already. They all signed up because they want to use other peoples devices but very few are willing to share yet.

Free/low cost runtime only exasperates this problem. Any sense of a "community" erodes if it is easy to just use other peoples work than contribute to the community. I believe others have called this "leeching".

Obviously I am all for patch sharing though regardless, I mean I spent a month creating a web site to do just that. But you can't ignore the leeching point.

Ultimately if M4L is to be a development platform where people will sell their work, there will need to be a way for the masses to use it without the $300 entry fee. So if that becomes a goal for Ableton with M4L they will HAVE TO provide a runtime for this. (especially since Pluggo is no more).

No clear right answer but I thought elaborating on the leeching point was necessary. I can certainly see keeping devices to myself if I felt like sharing was a one way street.
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whalebox
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by whalebox » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:52 pm

I knew Max was complicated but I had noooo idea until I got the beta yesterday. It's super awesome though, I'm definitely going to get it when it comes out. I think I might have to stop smoking weed if I want to get a hang of making devices but that'll probably be a good thing in the end.

Buffershuffler is really awesome and that device looks pretty simple (relatively speaking anyway), I can't wait to see what kind of stuff people come up with.

robleighton22
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by robleighton22 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:55 pm

Rave wrote:
Clearly you know nothing about app stores. It's up to the creator to assign a price which includes free - this is how apple do it.

exactly. free and apps and pay for apps, as well as demos. i can never see myself paying the price for MfL. I will happily live without it and use 3rd party plugins. However, ableton will be far and large the best audio program and community if it did an app store and a cheap or even included runtime with ableton 9. it is the obvious next step.

i am assuming, maybe a couple years (hopefully sooner), a runtime of sorts will be released. i will patiently till then. i think this is the begginning of a whole new world in music production. looking forward to the results.

nebulae
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by nebulae » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:00 pm

whalebox wrote:I can't wait to see what kind of stuff people come up with.
I can.

Gonna make some music now.

Tinker away, geekers.

*hugs*
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Tone Deft
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:03 pm

nebulae wrote:
whalebox wrote:I can't wait to see what kind of stuff people come up with.
I can.

Gonna make some music now.

Tinker away, geekers.

*hugs*
the luddite rebellion, fascinating people. :roll:
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rarelyseen
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by rarelyseen » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:04 pm

I like the idea of an app store and a free / cheap runtime-based M4L version. Those guys who make cool patches can sell them for $5-10 or even give them away for free. Makes the guy happy who spent countless of hours to work on a patch and gives the lazy folks access to a whole world of devices.

nebulae
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by nebulae » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:09 pm

Tone Deft FTW!
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4/4
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by 4/4 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:28 pm

Rave wrote:Clearly you guys know nothing about app stores. It's up to the creator to assign a price which includes free - this is how apple do it.

I did say charge or distribute. FAIL!
I did say 'usher'
v. ush·ered, ush·er·ing, ush·ers
v.tr.
1. To serve as an usher to; escort.
2. To lead or conduct. See Synonyms at guide.
3. To precede and introduce; inaugurate: a celebration to usher in the new century.


Telling people they can share in a store if they prefer, is akin to saying you can remain celibate in a brothel. The environment will encourage a specific type of behaviour.

Why mess with the way it already is with max/msp/jitter for years ? People who WANT to allow others to use their work are doing so of their own accord - and others will improve on these creations and re-distribute ala creative commons, that's what the environment encourages. People who want to SELL their patches/objects do so with success, but without being encouraged to do so from the get-go. Everyone's happy. Monome.org

I didn't think my point was that hard to grasp.
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Tone Deft
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:35 pm

nebulae wrote:the fanboy response, making less music. :roll:
blow me.

why do I need your approval of what I do in my home? if I want to play with jitter or make silly noises and blinky lights with max/msp I really don't give a shit what you think of it.

guys like you are just whining how you don't want this. great, we get it, but you're doing nothing but whining. it's not interesting to read. let people enjoy m4L, you can go enjoy a wank in the mirror.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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4/4
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by 4/4 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:36 pm

3phase wrote:
4/4 wrote:
gp23 wrote:An 'app store' is a terrible idea.
I think ushering people into the idea of selling patches is pretty repulsive.

I think ushering honest patchers into the idea to feed lurking culture vultures with more classy presets and algorythms and make them even pay for that is pretty repulsive..

there is to much generic music out there allready.. it dont helps to feed this kind of pseudo producers with clever semi random seq manipulators aso..
its like delivering nukes to 3rd world countrys.. not a good idea at all
While I see the truth in what you say and have said about this topic before, especially considering fads in the past like the suppatrigga vst (and now beat repeat?), it's neither here nor there in the context of this discussion imo. People in the max community share because they want to, and it's not just vultures lapping it up but other patchers with time on their hands and/or ideas for improving the patches. There's no hidden clause in the EULA which dictates you've got to share your work, btw.
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nebulae
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by nebulae » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:47 pm

Tone Deft FTW!
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