Max for Live - first impressions?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
davepermen
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by davepermen » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:29 pm

what 4/4 wanted to say is that the max community lives from the fact that people work together, and the work never ends but progresses, similar to other open source projects like linux or firefox. creating an app store means "finishing a patch", sorta closing it to sell it in that exact form. and this could be very counterproductive to the way max evolved till now.

i could create a great synth, tone depth could fiddle around on it a bit, making it more to his likings, and thus even more great, then nebulae continues on it, etc etc. what we get in the end is tons of synths (each version being another one). now who does get the money for this? nebulae? tone depth? me? it would get absolutely chaotic in terms of 'fitting into an app store'.

and btw, the app store (i speak as a developer) is the worst nightmare to the industry of apps. it reduces them to a very tiny niveau, and does not follow the ideals of apps.

why do you want an individual app with individual players from each band? you want just the music, and use them all with the same app. why do you want an individual app per book? one can zoom, the other can't, the other has better font rendering. and each is fixed to a book. you want a book reader (or more than one, competition is nice), but not "one per book, fixed to that book". same for music players, please not per track/cd/artist. same for everything. apps get reduced to simple one-button-advertising thingies instead of having some real purpose.

you don't want to download a new app for each webpage you want to watch, too.

besides that, the app store really kills revenue chances by forcing so much price reductions to actually get someone to pay your app that it's hard to make money with it, much harder than before the app store (while the target audience is much bigger actually). you create a nice app, worked months on it, and want to sell it for 3$? sorry, dude. a similar (but much worse) app is out there for free => no one will buy your app in the app store.

i like max, i play with it right now, can't wait to "grasp it", and being able to use it there, where it fits the best (it's just a tool.. i'm a programmer, everything is just a tool, no need to religiously use something out of .. trust in it?). maybe i will fail at it, but it will be a nice experience till i realise i failed. and i still will have learned tons out of it.

and that, dudes, is worth 300$ (happily, i'm in switzerland, i won't pay the € price :))
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.

nebulae
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by nebulae » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:07 pm

Tone Deft FTW!
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kb420
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by kb420 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:10 pm

@ Tone and Neb

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H20nly wrote:fuck Bitwig.

hoffman2k
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by hoffman2k » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:14 pm

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citizenchris099
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by citizenchris099 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:23 pm

davepermen wrote:what 4/4 wanted to say is that the max community lives from the fact that people work together, and the work never ends but progresses, similar to other open source projects like linux or firefox. creating an app store means "finishing a patch", sorta closing it to sell it in that exact form. and this could be very counterproductive to the way max evolved till now.

i could create a great synth, tone depth could fiddle around on it a bit, making it more to his likings, and thus even more great, then nebulae continues on it, etc etc. what we get in the end is tons of synths (each version being another one). now who does get the money for this? nebulae? tone depth? me? it would get absolutely chaotic in terms of 'fitting into an app store'.

and btw, the app store (i speak as a developer) is the worst nightmare to the industry of apps. it reduces them to a very tiny niveau, and does not follow the ideals of apps.

why do you want an individual app with individual players from each band? you want just the music, and use them all with the same app. why do you want an individual app per book? one can zoom, the other can't, the other has better font rendering. and each is fixed to a book. you want a book reader (or more than one, competition is nice), but not "one per book, fixed to that book". same for music players, please not per track/cd/artist. same for everything. apps get reduced to simple one-button-advertising thingies instead of having some real purpose.

you don't want to download a new app for each webpage you want to watch, too.

besides that, the app store really kills revenue chances by forcing so much price reductions to actually get someone to pay your app that it's hard to make money with it, much harder than before the app store (while the target audience is much bigger actually). you create a nice app, worked months on it, and want to sell it for 3$? sorry, dude. a similar (but much worse) app is out there for free => no one will buy your app in the app store.

i like max, i play with it right now, can't wait to "grasp it", and being able to use it there, where it fits the best (it's just a tool.. i'm a programmer, everything is just a tool, no need to religiously use something out of .. trust in it?). maybe i will fail at it, but it will be a nice experience till i realise i failed. and i still will have learned tons out of it.

and that, dudes, is worth 300$ (happily, i'm in switzerland, i won't pay the € price :))
4/4 doesn't need anyone speaking for him trust me. We get it.....its cool community and what not. Though if the demand is their for a Max4Live app store and people are willing to pay....if you build it they will come.

Rave
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by Rave » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:28 pm

All an app store is a database of apps in one centralised place. It doesn't have to be called a store if that word offends some of you. Its just that some people may charge for their apps, that's all. The community aspect of it shouldn't be effected. Of course if someone steals someones code and tries to sell it then that is another business but that will always happen in an open source community.

davepermen
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by davepermen » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:30 pm

problem is, what he said (and i understand and thus fully agree with him) is, an app store would essentially kill the main feature of the app store itself: great apps on it. as most of the existing community wouldn't be able to adapt, and the new community would be about "i built it all myself at home without other help and want money" greedy people, and knowledge would not be shared, essentially freezing the evolution of max into tiny individual mindsets instead of a big evolutionary work, what it is right now. it's kind of a wikipedia of musical devices. each and everyone contributes, instead of like the vst world, where each builds more or less the same to sell you again for money. (and this works well as long as they can sell it for lotsa money, as then, development time for big complex vsts gets fundet.. for apple app store prices, no one would built something useful).


i would fully support a community place. problem is, app store isn't a community place, it's the complete contrary to it.
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.

Tone Deft
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:32 pm

nebulae wrote:@tone deft - I see that you failed my challenge to not get personal. Look how surprised I am. Let us analyze your insipidity one at a time.
dumbshit, you ask me to lay off the personal attacks in a post laced with personal attacks. holy hypocrite!
1. What I know or don't know has nothing to do with what you know or don't know. You love (and I mean boner-love, even jizz-love) getting your your "I'm a superior audio engineer" high horse. And then you boobie-love using that position to thwart your opponent. Sadly, that knowledge often has nothing, nada, zippo, zilch to do with the actual argument. All it serves to do is show everyone how big your audio engineering cock is. Woop de doo, it's huge and you're a mother fucker with it. Great. Now about the argument we were having, you lost it 5 fanboy posts ago. Read on, I'll tell you exactly how.
I never wrote that I'm an audio engineer dipshit. I'm a hardware engineer that also does code. electrical engineering is a GREAT degree that lends itself to things like understanding data rates, the actual physics of cables, audio theory, all kinds of stuff that relates to this hobby we share. I've been formally trained to understand this stuff, I speak from experience. you're just being an asshole and not saying much. how does my background apply? what I do for a living, what I've spent half my life learning is close to what I can do with max/msp. what you do for a living? what you've been trained in has jackshit to do with it. you've never had an interest in geekery, we don't give a shit if you don't want to buy m4l.
2. Patent lawyers are engineers and lawyers. They can be as geeky as you and argue way better than you. Pwned. Bitch. (though I do enjoy watching you squirm when you get your intelligence challenged...wow, the insecurity)
no shit, and you're not a patent lawyer, what's your point? some lawyers are smart, wow. some plumbers are geniuses. don't you do real estate law or something boring like that? again, you're being a poser, putting up patent attorney when you're not one. whatever, just a sidepoint to defend lawyers. lawyers are d0uchebags we all know that.
3. Sorry to be repetitive, but once again, what entire communities are doing has nothing to do with how I make music. I don't have to be as geeky as the community for me to not appreciate it at that level. Oh yeah, that's what this argument was about. And you lost the argument when you went off on one of your mad rants. Where you lost credibility. Talking about insipid shit that didn't matter. Oh yeah. Duh.
again, mostly just personal attacks. you do not have an interest in this stuff, many people do.
4. You win on the appreciation for the cost of entry argument. I'd never pay $700 for Max. That's the first, non-personal, reasonable argument you've made in this entire flame war.
you're a child for keeping score. lame. I don't think you've made a point with being insulting, that's OK, you're just a lawyer, an asshole. god I hope you're better in court than this. wow.
5. Another lame personal attack? Bitch, don't take off the gloves if you don't want to get your knuckles bruised. If you are incapable of not getting personal, I'll pwn you till the cows come home. Let's go, bitch. Bring it. I'll got all day mother fucker.
yeah, I know... you'll write this lame crap then write how you pwn me. a stupid game to appease your ego.
6. Your comfort zone has NOTHING to do with this. I don't know anything about audio engineering. And I don't fucking care. And how much I don't know has NOTHING to do with this argument.
goddamn you're dense. sitting down, writing code, playing with things just to play with them like you would in max/msp is very close to what I do for a living. what do you do? you read legal shit, wear suits, talk to people, deal with law bullshit. totally different than what I do. get it yet? I understand why you don't want m4L, it makes sense. you just can't seem to accept me putting it in the light that there's something you can't do and have no interest in by nature. all I'm saying is that I understand why you don't want it.
6. Oh on that thread that's all about me....you're the second highest poster. Calling Dr. Freud...we have an self-narcissistic emergency.
you calling anyone narcissistic is a serious LOL. you're totally full of yourself but that's part of your charm. btw you wrote THREAD instead of forum. I post on there when I want to post OT crap I'm tired of seeing here.
7. Ooooh a schematic. Let me guess. That's the schematic of your gigantic penis. Oh wait, what does that have to do with the cost of Max? Fucking nothing. But your dick sure is big. And talking about how something's outta my league doesn't help you when the argument isn't about the league. But now you're trying to tell a lawyer what the argument is. Keep at it....you're credibility is about as big as your giant audio engineering dick.
are you reading this crap before you post? you're totally losing your cool. that schematic is a delay line. how you make a delay line is something I've known for years, you wouldn't have the first clue because this is not your thing. I could start from nothing and write one in max/msp in one one-thousandth the time it would take you, literally.
8. Aah a request to enjoy a good discussion. The original poster asked for first impressions and made a statement I agreed with. Then you came here and got personal. And then you ask me to let you have a good discussion. Seriously, do you read what you write before you post them? Sometimes you sound like you're typing from special ed.
you can't go after me about getting personal, you're just as bad at it.
9. You're right, I'm not a New Yorker. I didn't grow up there, or have most of my family and friends there. Or go back there several times a year. Yup, ya got me good, pardner, yeeeehaaa. I love in Dallas, Texas. Wow, that's almost as insightful as calling all San Franciscans giant homos....then again, you are a bigger drama queen then most of the queens I hang out with. But yeah, you sure got me good. World according to Tone Deft: Postal Address = Personal Identity. Brilliant.
this is just retarded. OK neb you new york patent attorney you. :roll:
10. Bring me some more flames...I'm enjoying pwning you at every level.
you enjoy thinking you're pwning me. all you're doing is throwing around insults and saying you're pwning me. this is lame.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

hoffman2k
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by hoffman2k » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:34 pm

Rave wrote:Congrats on passing the 12K mark - that's one hell of a lot of late nights :twisted:
Ah. Didn't notice. Who's counting anyway?
I'd give mad props to Neb, but he and Tone are too busy trying to create a black hole by tearing each other a new arsehole.

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nebulae
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by nebulae » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:13 am

Tone Deft FTW!
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4/4
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by 4/4 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:35 am

Go eat some cake with your kid for fuck sake
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LoopStationZebra
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:37 am

Speaking of b0unce, where the fuck did he go?
I came for the :lol:
But stayed for the :x

synnack
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by synnack » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:11 am

4/4 wrote:
tempus3r wrote:I have been thinking and talking with M4L beta testers about ... and how to possibly sell and distribute devices...
How's about the same way they have been for years ?
What's up with all the shills coming out of the woodwork ?

Did I say something that conflicts with how things have been done for years? Because there has been a max community for years negates my statement that I have been talking to people about it? Damn dude, if you're upset already from my post before I've even made any point I wonder if you're thinking clearly.

4/4 wrote:
tempus3r wrote: As a device developer who may have spent months building a complicated, one of a kind, effect, do I share it to a community who does not give me anything back? I think a lot of people are thinking this already. They all signed up because they want to use other peoples devices but very few are willing to share yet.
No offence, but this is just short sighted rubbish imo. How has the max community been getting by up until now ? You talk like max msp hasn't been thriving already for years.

I am telling you what it seems a lot of people are thinking. Not what I think. OBVIOUSLY I don' think that. I made my own web site just for sharing! The question I ask there is rhetorical, from their point of view, which I am sympathetic too. That's it.
4/4 wrote:
tempus3r wrote: But you can't ignore the leeching point.
Leech is a pretty evocative choice of words, as I've pointed out (and it doesn't even need pointing out) people also IMPROVE and MODIFY the patches they download and as such the patches become more stable on various system specs, and evolve etc. This has been working out fine for years. Anyone who's wanted to sell their stuff has. I bought and donated towards several max/msp created FX & Instruments. I like the community environment the way it is, and a store-centric environment is anathema imo.

Sure. But people improving and modifying is giving something back. That's not leeching. The leeching comment is about people who do NOTHING but take. People can sell their stuff now with Max to anyone because of the free max runtime. Since we don't have one for M4L, how is the way the community as it is relevant?
4/4 wrote:
tempus3r wrote: Ultimately if M4L is to be a development platform where people will sell their work, there will need to be a way for the masses to use it without the $300 entry fee. So if that becomes a goal for Ableton with M4L they will HAVE TO provide a runtime for this. (especially since Pluggo is no more).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pluggo isn't 'no more', it's going to be repackaged as content with M4L ?
The pluggo content is in M4L but that's not the same thing. Pluggo included the ability to make (and hence cell) self contained vst effects which could be distributed without requiring things like Live. So in that sense, even with M4L there is no more Pluggo.
4/4 wrote:
tempus3r wrote: No clear right answer but I thought elaborating on the leeching point was necessary. I can certainly see keeping devices to myself if I felt like sharing was a one way street.
Are you new to max msp ? You come across as an opportunistic shill who hasn't spent much time in the maxmsp community previous to M4L, no offence.
I've been a max user for about 2 years. Opportunistic? I spent a month of my free time making a site so anyone can easily share devices. In fact the hosting will cost money for which I will make none. Yet I'm opportunistic?
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Tone Deft
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:21 am

holy jumping jesus on a urinal cake neb, did they not let you into the bouncey house or what?

what were we arguing about? I LOL'ed the whole time. I didn't take any jabs you didn't. shit, I was the one calling you charming and intelligent. who the fuck have I ever written that to?

so, your max4Live first impression isn't a good one. maybe the Serato collab will work better for you.
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

4/4
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Re: Max for Live - first impressions?

Post by 4/4 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:34 am

tempus3r wrote:Yet I'm opportunistic?
I'm pretty much done with max talk for the day and I've got a dookie baking in my bowels, let's put a pin in it for tonight

btw for the record I said your were an opportunistic shill
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