automation timing accuracy

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
jtdj
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by jtdj » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:48 pm

ethios4 wrote:Since it's been so long since Live 8 came out, I guess that Ableton is working on the fabled ground-up re-write of the software, so hopefully all these semi-related bugs will finally get fixed. If, on the other hand, Live 9 just has a bunch of extra gadgets and crap and continues to avoid the fundamental problems of the last decade....I'll most definitely be saving my upgrade money and looking elsewhere. The fanboy stage is long dead for me, and the software is becoming more and more of a hindrance for production.

its pissin me off now aswell. iv used it since version 5 and tbh im getting pretty bored of reading and experiencing all these problems. i bigged up ableton for years and now its turning to shit.

3phase
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by 3phase » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:34 pm

leedsquietman wrote:Other DAWS are in the same position re PDC and automation, Live is not exclusive in this regard.

??? can you proove that? which other daw´s? the magix music maker?

how can a sampleacuate automation as we find it in nuendo or logic be not delay compensated?..

does it need comepensation when it just sticks sample accurate to the time line?


isnt the problem with ableton live rateher that it has elastic audio and dont cares about the conection to the timeline too much?

in practical application verything insode the progam seems to be very flexible regarding the time line.. midi sequences played in can be olaced up to 20 ms wrong for example...
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ethios4
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by ethios4 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:47 pm

In the past the response from Ableton has been that there is a choice to be made between recording/automation timing being tied to what you see or what you hear. For example, if you are recording a knob tweak into the arrange view, should the automation be based on what you actually heard during the recording (you will be compensating for latency automatically in your performance) or should the automation be shifted backwards in time to compensate for the latency?

In my opinion, the very obvious answer is to leave that choice in the hands of the person using the software because in actual practice sometimes you draw in automation and sometimes record it live. Also, this answer makes no sense when it comes to the meters not being delay-compensated (a related issue).

massenmedium
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by massenmedium » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:55 pm

kayhel wrote:I just think that flattening removes the delay from the plugins completely. So it's not that the delay compensation is working, but that you are happy having a track with a zero latency. Add some delaying plugins to the master and the sync problem is back...

cheers
Kay
I think you're still missing what I was saying.

You think that flattening 'removes' the delay? Well I suppose it does if what Laura says is correct. But how does it do that? By compensating for it. And what is the difference between 'flattening' and 'rendering'? The difference is that rendering a whole project usually involves more than one track (as well as sends and master effects, as you suggest), so this is where it falls down.

It doesn't matter too much, I just like to have an idea of how this is working or not, and maybe point out where a fix might be effected. Otherwise, well it's not up to us so the only thing I'm concerned with is that the developers have a good idea of how to improve matters.

Cheers.

massenmedium
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by massenmedium » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:57 pm

I can see that it's one of those things that once you start plotting out all the various dependencies probably gets a bit more complicated than at first it may appear...

kayhel
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by kayhel » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:34 pm

massenmedium wrote:
kayhel wrote:I just think that flattening removes the delay from the plugins completely. So it's not that the delay compensation is working, but that you are happy having a track with a zero latency. Add some delaying plugins to the master and the sync problem is back...

cheers
Kay
I think you're still missing what I was saying.

You think that flattening 'removes' the delay? Well I suppose it does if what Laura says is correct. But how does it do that? By compensating for it. And what is the difference between 'flattening' and 'rendering'? The difference is that rendering a whole project usually involves more than one track (as well as sends and master effects, as you suggest), so this is where it falls down.

It doesn't matter too much, I just like to have an idea of how this is working or not, and maybe point out where a fix might be effected. Otherwise, well it's not up to us so the only thing I'm concerned with is that the developers have a good idea of how to improve matters.

Cheers.
nope. the source on the track has no more delay after flattening because the very first delay (which ist caused by latency) is simply removed. The PDC is the process of aligning of the timimg with various delays in the tracks. As a result of flattening of all tracks (with delaying 3rd party plugins...) theres nothing to compensate because the maximum delay of tracks is ... zero.
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kayhel
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by kayhel » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:38 pm

massenmedium wrote:
You think that flattening 'removes' the delay? Well I suppose it does if what Laura says is correct. But how does it do that? By compensating for it.
PDC is adding delay on tracks that are too fast (aligning them to the maximum delay you have in your set). PDC can never remove delay.
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nopattern
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by nopattern » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:04 pm

cubase 5.5, rock solid. i rarely do much production in ableton these days other than sound design

voxengo makes a free vst plugin to control unreported latency

there is also a helpful tutorial in the FL studio manual about this and how to manually compensate.

in ableton, using everything in a rack seems to help the issue instead of dragging and dropping plugins onto the channels

massenmedium
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by massenmedium » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:13 pm

I'm talking about the automation timing. If it lines up correctly when flattening a single track but not when exporting a project (flattening multiple tracks), then why is that? Maybe we know the answer. Do you see?

If the delay of each track is known and the automation is calculated on a track-by-track basis then why should it not be accurate. Of course, I do realise it may not be so straightforward and you may have to take into account dependenices between audio channels.

massenmedium
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by massenmedium » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:14 pm

nopattern wrote:voxengo makes a free vst plugin to control unreported latency
Yes, if that's the issue it's not Ableton's fault at all.

massenmedium
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by massenmedium » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:15 pm

kayhel wrote:nope. the source on the track has no more delay after flattening because the very first delay (which ist caused by latency) is simply removed. The PDC is the process of aligning of the timimg with various delays in the tracks. As a result of flattening of all tracks (with delaying 3rd party plugins...) theres nothing to compensate because the maximum delay of tracks is ... zero.
I agree with what you are saying but what I am doing is asking questions about the reasons this can not be made to work.

kayhel
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by kayhel » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:20 pm

ethios4 wrote:In the past the response from Ableton has been that there is a choice to be made between recording/automation timing being tied to what you see or what you hear. For example, if you are recording a knob tweak into the arrange view, should the automation be based on what you actually heard during the recording (you will be compensating for latency automatically in your performance) or should the automation be shifted backwards in time to compensate for the latency?

In my opinion, the very obvious answer is to leave that choice in the hands of the person using the software because in actual practice sometimes you draw in automation and sometimes record it live. Also, this answer makes no sense when it comes to the meters not being delay-compensated (a related issue).
I think the solution is simple - because there's only one. The expected audible experience of manual automation changes should always be just in time with the smallest delay possible - we are live. During recording, that needs to be shifted back to the originating timeline and therefore needs to be compensated by the global liveset delay which is known from the PDC. That ensures that it is again in sync with lives time base (i hope live has an -one- internal timebase on the arrangement). When you play it back again, it has to be automatically _delayed_ by the amount of the delay that the destination device/plugin currently has in the audio chain.
I cannot think about any usecase where this would not solve all the sync issues...
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kayhel
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Re: automation timing accuracy

Post by kayhel » Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:24 pm

Ableton?

Known issue for years right?'
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