Songwriters, How do you do it?

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Nicknackerski
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Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by Nicknackerski » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:43 am

I'm was thinking that arranging, structure, and musical form are an important part of music production.
Although i'm not particually bad at arranging, i bought a few books off Amazon to improve a little....

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Arranging-Songs ... 011&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Music-Compositi ... 052&sr=1-1

So how do you good people deal with the task of getting 'a good tune' into 'a great composition with lyrics etc'

Cheers
Nick

ghostly
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by ghostly » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:36 am

Just mess around until you get something you like is what I do. Don't be afraid to butcher what you've already created, you have copies right? so it doesn't matter if what you do is shite.

I was in a bit of a rut about a year ago, and as an exercise I deconstructed about half a dozen of my favourite songs - really sat down and worked out chord structure, instrumentation, pacing, etc. Got it down on paper. And then I tried copying each song, but using a different starting point (i.e. changing chords, but sticking to the number of chords per verse, chorus, etc). I tried to create synth patches from scratch. I tried to replicate effects settings. I wrote my own lyrics but tried to match the pacing and impact of the original. It all sounds a bit pretentious but I thought it was a very useful exercise and I learnt a lot, probably more than you'd get from reading a dry textbook on the matter.

sowhoso
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by sowhoso » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:03 pm

one of the things I love so much about live, being able to improvise arrangements realtime

bicarbone
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by bicarbone » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:10 pm

It's all about layers to me. A good song always starts with a few chords, a melody and a particular mood. I like what Brian Eno says about lyrics:
What you really want to be doing is to be writing lyrics that are outside of your own understanding.

They feel like this is what you want to be singing.
But you don't know why.
Back to the musical aspect, sometimes it's better to keep the song to its simplest expression: voice + guitar for instance.

I then try to add different layers and see if it serves the song well or not.
A beat, little counterpoint melodies, rythmical events, doubling the lead vocal with a
keyboard, vocal harmonies, and whatnot. I'm always very careful about the instrument I'm chosing regarding its tone and character. Even if what is played feels right melodically or rythmically speaking, some sounds will sound off topic.

Anyway, always keep it simple and leave enough space for what makes the core of the song. Nowadays in the DAW era, with infinite possibilities and countless tracks available, it's easy to overdo it. I tend to imagine I have only 4 tracks available and make the best out of it. Then I'll add afew more if it keeps sounding good to me (and that can be up to 25!).

Someone said: "restrictions will set you free".
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posssu
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by posssu » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:22 pm

I start with the main idea (for example chorus): I go to Session view and record ALL the ideas and sounds I can come up with for that particular idea, even if they weren't originally there. Maybe temporary vocals too or just the melody with a piano or something like that. When this is done, I usually have the climax of the song. When this sounds good, I usually have the last chorus of the song there. Then I derive the other choruses by taking away stuff.

When starting with the verse, I have the instrument palette already there, since I used it to build the chorus.

To sum it up: record all the ideas and then take away stuff to build the rest of the song.

When it feels I have most of the stuff recorded, I record the structure into the Arrangement view and start rerecording parts that need it and most of all, start adding details, overlaps between different sections. Details.

If you don't have your vocals recorded yet, be careful not to mix too much before you get them - you have to remix anyway after getting them, since they need a lot of space in the middle. Probably more than you thought...

Like said above, simple is also nice. The above would apply especially with a pop-production.
Juhana Lehtiniemi - Film composer with Ableton Live

bicarbone
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by bicarbone » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:34 pm

Possu makes some good points here.

About what ghostly said: I think it's a very good way to learn deconstructing songs you like.
Making a cover of a well known tune is actually teaching you a lot about what makes the song, what is its essence. What is the hook? Is it the riff, the melody of the chorus, the chord changes in the verse? What can be left out and what needs to be kept?

Another good Brian Eno quote:
Cut a vital connection.

That's a very interesting thing to do because most pieces of music are based around some centre, like a drum track or a drone, which really holds everything together. Just try taking that element out of the music and see what happens.
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4.33
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by 4.33 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:02 pm

bicarbone wrote:It's all about layers to me. A good song always starts with a few chords, a melody and a particular mood. I like what Brian Eno says about lyrics:
What you really want to be doing is to be writing lyrics that are outside of your own understanding.

They feel like this is what you want to be singing.
But you don't know why.
wow, do you have that interview handy? i could really use some advice on writing lyrics from ambient perspective.

citizenchris099
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by citizenchris099 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:55 pm

sowhoso wrote:one of the things I love so much about live, being able to improvise arrangements realtime
I second this completely. I've used other D.A.W. software and nothing compares to Live's intuitive approach to composition/performance. I guess it depends on what the OP is defining as "songwriting"? I've been studying music going on two years now and suffice to say this "songwriting" term is nebulous at best. I typically sequence parts (percussion, chords, basss) then improvise melodic phrases over those parts. I work in a kind of modal fashion so I'm not changing chords more than once or twice in a song...typically mod up a whole or half step. Arrangements are "found" in real time playing the parts in Ableton.

photonal
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by photonal » Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:41 pm

bicarbone wrote: Back to the musical aspect, sometimes it's better to keep the song to its simplest expression: voice + guitar for instance.
...
Someone said: "restrictions will set you free".
bugger!!! now i know where i've been going wrong - 'cos i don't sing or play guitar !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :twisted:

ChiDJ
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by ChiDJ » Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:06 pm

just my .02,

For years the art of Arrangement eluded me as well. I learned by literally copying other arrangements to the letter. Adding and removing elements exactly as the "guide track".

After several years (yes, years for me :wink: ). I got it.

Tod
"Let you're body feel the sound! Let it cover you up and down!"

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bicarbone
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by bicarbone » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:29 pm

4.33 wrote:
bicarbone wrote:It's all about layers to me. A good song always starts with a few chords, a melody and a particular mood. I like what Brian Eno says about lyrics:
What you really want to be doing is to be writing lyrics that are outside of your own understanding.

They feel like this is what you want to be singing.
But you don't know why.
wow, do you have that interview handy? i could really use some advice on writing lyrics from ambient perspective.
http://music.hyperreal.org/artists/brian_eno/mondo.4
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Tarekith
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by Tarekith » Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:55 pm

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on it:

http://tarekith.com/assets/arranging.html
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4.33
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by 4.33 » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:18 pm


KrisM
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by KrisM » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:47 pm

I pretty much just do it as I go. When I used a tracker I'd set a pattern to loop and add/remove notes until I liked it, then keep doing that until I got something I liked, then copy/paste and modify things in the new pattern, etc and piece the song together bit by bit. Make up a "verse", a "chorus" or "break", or whatever really. Just keep making parts and chaining them together.

Usually things just come to me, I try out note runs and effects (not effects like delays, etc, but musical effects), new lines, percussion fills, etc but eventually you have to know when to quit. :mrgreen:

With Live I often write a lot in Arrangement view, but then chop it all up and paste it into Session just to change things up a bit and see how new ideas work out easily and quickly.
I don't 'produce.' I write music.

H20nly
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Re: Songwriters, How do you do it?

Post by H20nly » Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:52 pm

This might not be what you want to hear but while structure is good spontaneity, for me, is better.

Some of my favorite tracks (that I worked on) happened on accident. I've had quite a few of those lately.
A bass player stops by and starts noodling..
I lay a drum beat...
hit record to get the bass...
loop a little
start digging through vocals or write new ones on the spot depending on time and the mood of those involved or the music itself.
Then I take posssu's stance and start subtracting
Then start adding any cool little bits of percussion or ambiance... you know, strange shit.
If I get lucky some girl that can sing a hook (and better yet, write one too) will stop by later and viola!

I even did a track with 2 bass players about 3 weeks ago... one played low notes on a Gibson the other played high notes on a Fender... It sounds pretty cool to me.
I drove one long ass vocal onslaught straight down the middle and we said fuck a hook. Its different and was fun to make.

I guess it depends on what style(s) you're going for or trying to create/blend.

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