Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

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leedsquietman
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Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by leedsquietman » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:41 am

I'm just curious to know if any of you are running Samplitude / Sequoia who also use Live to canvass your opinion on this.
Last edited by leedsquietman on Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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leedsquietman
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Re: Which of you guys are Samplitude/Sequoia users ?

Post by leedsquietman » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:21 am

Nobody it seems.

The reason I ask is because of some dude who is trashing Live's sound quality at Gearslutz talking the usual trash about 'Live sounds terrible, Samplitude sounds great' and using an irrelevant youtube video from Robert Henke where he said in his opinion 64 bit summing was more about marketing than quality (which is probably correct, given most people can't hear the upper ranges of dynamic range in 32 bit float) and tries to twist that into 'Live is shit, but we added 64 bit summing as a placebo to shut people up'.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-co ... mer-5.html

4th post and some beyond this - the user No Pattern. Discuss - do we agree or not ?? I certainly think that even if he perceives a difference, that calling Live 'shit to mix in' is a bit much. This is polar extremes from my experience comparing Live to Cubase and Logic especially, where the mix on raw audio with the same pan law and gain settings sounds the same (not including plugins).
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project project
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by project project » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:11 am

I have to say that I do find that when mixing in live (version 7) that sometimes certain things sound different in realtime compared to my master mix. Instruments or effects cut in louder or softer in the wav bounce down than in the realtime play back.

I always put this down to my own inexperience and assumed that perhaps it was something I was doing wrong (though I never had any problem using other daws). But things are more complex these days with dithering and all sorts of things I don't understand yet. :)

I still find ableton is the best daw for writing music. There is no comparison. But I somewhat agree that for summing, the final mix can arguably not be the same as the real time mix. Though, with a little patience it isn't hard to go back and get the mix I want.

As for general, real time use, live sounds great to my ears... I think that most people that don't agree generally seemed to be snobbish about their daw of choice and their person brand loyalty.

I think if you don't like a aspect from one daw, but like something else about it, then mix and match. Too many people want it easy, want it all in one place and want it yesterday, for free... Personally, if I could afford it right now, I would have something like the TL audio 'fat track' for summing my mixes, because I like the feeling of mixing outboard and to my ear, tubes add a nice bit of grit to a sound. But thats just me... :)

mr.ergonomics
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by mr.ergonomics » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:08 am

actually it's true and not true.

all my summing tests with plugins showed no difference or a difference below -160 dbfs (which is almost the same as no difference since you cant hear -160 dbfs). Live sounds fine, I've found nobody that can prove something different!

but live is NOT sample accurate (search the forum), that is a big no no for me. not to mention the fade bug. that are real issues I can prove, no esoteric chitchat. it makes me sad since I really like the company and the way live works.

leedsquietman
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by leedsquietman » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:18 am

What you have to remember is that the real time mix (what you hear in real time) is all calculated at 32 bit float, which allows a lot of headroom (you can redline a lot without hearing clipping) and plugins don't have to dither. Even if you mix down to 24 bit, it will sound different due to internal dithering and this is especially true for 16 bit (CD and mp3) where the headroom is much less so audio artifacts, clipping and warping artifacts are more noticeable. This would apply to Logic, Cubase or any other DAW.

The fade bug is something Ableton should fix as a priority. It still does not make it 'shit' to mix in. I admit, I am from the null test philosophy but that is my experience. I'm happy enough to mix in Live - I frequently render files out and mix in Cubase 5 but not for sound quality, for better dual support of monitors, some of the plugins and features such as Reverence (convolution reverb) and Variaudio and better mixing views - but sound quality - no, I don't hear it.

Logic only went sample accurate from version 8, but it would be nice to have live 9 sample accurate.
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diskowipe
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by diskowipe » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:01 pm

i really dont understand how people still haven't figured this out yet. i am really skeptical of anyone who claims that Live sounds the same as other programs, it's just not true

the first thing to realize is that the null tests are pointless and dont prove anything. they cause more confusion than anything else.

its all about the buffer structure and the way live handles chains of effects processing. the sound that it creates in real time as a result of the way the vsts are interacting with the program. I am using samplitude and the difference in clarity is tremendous when i go to do a complex mix. ableton sounds like mp3 almost, it gets worse the more tracks and vsts you add

i am not going to debate this but there are plenty of threads on GS where very reputable people talk about their opinions on ableton. The Ben Feggans guy in that thread is a very outstanding mastering engineer who masters for OM records among other top labels. He says the first thing he does with a live project is bounce it stem by stem into sequoia and the difference is remarkable.

people need to get their head out of their asses and get off the abeton forum and realize that there is a whole world of music and audio beyond our little loop player

it's not about "sound quality" but realizing that because ableton is a LIVE application, there are certain processes going on in the effects chains that are affecting what you hear

diskowipe
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by diskowipe » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:05 pm

mr.ergonomics wrote: but live is NOT sample accurate
exactly, and what happens as a result of that in the effects chains?

COMB FILTERING = Exactly why people say Live sounds grainy :idea: :roll:

Here's a quote from Mr. Ben F from this gearslutz thread:http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electron ... ating.html

This guy has charted #1 tracks on Beatport Deep House charts, but he must be an idiot just like villalobos :roll:

"I haven't read the entire thread, but completely agree with Villalobos in regards to abletons sound quality. If I am mastering a track from ableton, the first thing I do is bounce out the tracks as stems and import them into Sequoia. Big sound difference that clients can hear straight away- and its not placebo because often they will not know what I have done and comment that the 'track sounds better already'."

diskowipe
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by diskowipe » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:29 pm

i think that guy who was talking about that robert henke video did so to prove the point that when Live 7 came out, the forums were filled with everyone saying how much better it sounded cause Ableton announed the "audio engine upgrade"

the video i believe was referenced to show that there was no audible difference in the upgrade but everyone was raving about how much better 7 sounded... basically the same people who say that DAW sound differences is placebo completely bought into the fact that live 7 sounded better even though it didnt, so they are in fact the ones under the placebo effect

7G
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by 7G » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:30 pm

Make sure you don't enable high quality when you use ableton's plugs on returns,it's ok though if you enable it on normal tracks...
And make sure if you use compressor on returns to disable look ahead or better to switch to opto & FB...Limiter won't do..

Just something to get you goin :wink:

diskowipe
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by diskowipe » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:39 pm

7G wrote:Make sure you don't enable high quality when you use ableton's plugs on returns,it's ok though if you enable it on normal tracks...
And make sure if you use compressor on returns to disable look ahead or better to switch to opto & FB...Limiter won't do..

Just something to get you goin :wink:
what are you talking about?

HeavyBeats
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by HeavyBeats » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:51 pm

The biggest Ableton problem is that you can hear if the song/project is make in Ableton.
I nowe a bunch of people would say "what you talking about" but i trust my ears 8)
Some homework for the developers maybe to change this :mrgreen:

7G
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by 7G » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:53 pm

I had problems with this comb filtering effect when using high quality modes on my returns so after disabling it the thing sounded
as it should..Sweet!
Don't know really what's happening but i can sure spot the difference..

Grandmasterbird
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by Grandmasterbird » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:06 pm

Well, if there is a difference I cant hear it and I will continue to use Live as it's a great tool for making music.

I think that's the point really- if the musical content is good, who cares?

Concentrate on making music!! :wink:

mr.ergonomics
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by mr.ergonomics » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:38 pm

diskowipe wrote:
mr.ergonomics wrote: but live is NOT sample accurate
exactly, and what happens as a result of that in the effects chains?

COMB FILTERING = Exactly why people say Live sounds grainy :idea: :roll:

Here's a quote from Mr. Ben F from this gearslutz thread:http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electron ... ating.html

This guy has charted #1 tracks on Beatport Deep House charts, but he must be an idiot just like villalobos :roll:

"I haven't read the entire thread, but completely agree with Villalobos in regards to abletons sound quality. If I am mastering a track from ableton, the first thing I do is bounce out the tracks as stems and import them into Sequoia. Big sound difference that clients can hear straight away- and its not placebo because often they will not know what I have done and comment that the 'track sounds better already'."


but comb filtering is easy to identify! just make a test (I do that often...). In Logic you had to do the delay compensation long time ago manually, remember it? I just do that in ableton too. I agree it sucks big time, but there is no bad algorithm or something - at least nobody is able to prove this (I tried this often!).


But maybe it's time to push this again.

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=120472

kb420
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by kb420 » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:42 pm

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"That which does not kill us makes us stronger..........."
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