Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

[Parametex]

i really dont understand how people still haven't figured this out yet. i am really skeptical of anyone who claims that Live sounds the same as other programs, it's just not true

the first thing to realize is that the null tests are pointless and dont prove anything. they cause more confusion than anything else.

its all about the buffer structure and the way live handles chains of effects processing. the sound that it creates in real time as a result of the way the vsts are interacting with the program. I am using samplitude and the difference in clarity is tremendous when i go to do a complex mix. ableton sounds like mp3 almost, it gets worse the more tracks and vsts you add

i am not going to debate this but there are plenty of threads on GS where very reputable people talk about their opinions on ableton. The Ben Feggans guy in that thread is a very outstanding mastering engineer who masters for OM records among other top labels. He says the first thing he does with a live project is bounce it stem by stem into sequoia and the difference is remarkable.

people need to get their head out of their asses and get off the abeton forum and realize that there is a whole world of music and audio beyond our little loop player

it's not about "sound quality" but realizing that because ableton is a LIVE application, there are certain processes going on in the effects chains that are affecting what you hear

Even-though I love the Picture posted above I am sorry to whole heartedly agree with mr. diskowipe. The inferiority of lives summing engine come out when you compare the end result of lives render and separate stems mixed in cubase for example. I mix in different program all the time ... Also leaving plenty of headroom in Live makes it sound less coloured.

Why do I still use Live? Because it is so fucking nice to use ... thats why.

[mr.ergonomics]

ok, "ableton is bad at summing" people, if you can hear a differance it should be really easy to prove it (no offence here)!

I tried that often, I got perfect cancellation... so please try it and if you have a difference be so kind and post a snippet or something.

[smartass303]

umm,
there are productions done completely in live, mastered at dubplates&mastering, played (and bought) by djs worldwide. hey, there are even a&r people at major record labels that listen to productions and dont care about sound quality in the first place.

and nobody of them is giving a shit about discussions at gearslutz or elsewhere on the interwebz.

are they wrong? what is important? what makes music great?

its the idea. if you are a engineer you maybe dont want to use live because some respected gearslutz guys (or ricardo) say that it doesnt work becuase of this and that. if you are a musician and want to get shit done you maybe like possibilities live offers that other daws dont have.

its a personal decission. but i dont like this attitude: "you cant work with live because XY said the summing engine is shite"

this is total retardation,

303

[kb420]

Reality check:

[diskowipe]

umm,
there are productions done completely in live, mastered at dubplates&mastering, played (and bought) by djs worldwide. hey, there are even a&r people at major record labels that listen to productions and dont care about sound quality in the first place.

and nobody of them is giving a shit about discussions at gearslutz or elsewhere on the interwebz.

are they wrong? what is important? what makes music great?

its the idea. if you are a engineer you maybe dont want to use live because some respected gearslutz guys (or ricardo) say that it doesnt work becuase of this and that. if you are a musician and want to get shit done you maybe like possibilities live offers that other daws dont have.

its a personal decission. but i dont like this attitude: "you cant work with live because XY said the summing engine is shite"

this is total retardation,

303

you are missing the point man, the summing is FINE

Live itself is fine as well. I also know people who get great results with it, however there are certain things you need to work around and be aware of that don't exist in other applications and its not related to warping or anything like that but how the program is dealing with calculations between plug-ins.

basically, if you want to do a mix with long chains of effects and lots of tracks and not worry all kinds of crazy shit happening between your effects chains then live is not the right place to do it. If you are willing to spend the extra time to work around its limitations then you can get a fine sound. But the grainy sound that everybody hears is because they are trying to use the program the same way you can use logic or nuendo and it unfortunately doesnt work like that. you will come out with the same aliased bullshit that everyone complains about

for me, i dont want to have to worry about this stuff. i just want to write music and know my tools are working the way they're supposed to. many vst plugins will sound radically different in different applications and different buffer settings. So it's not the DAW that has a "sound" but the way it utilizes the plugins (which is all that really matters) that creates the end product.

One more question for you all. Even if something nulls after rendering does that mean it sounds the same in real-time while inside the DAW? And doesnt the real-time sound determine your mix decisions. these are all factors to take into account for yourself

however, if you are a capable user and know whats happening then by all means use ableton...

[mdb]

Samplitude does sound better. BY A LOT... Especially when you get into the larger track counts. Its just something you have to experience for yourself. I'm not going to try and sell anyone. You can find out on your own.

Plus, when it comes time to mix, ableton is really missing technical audio features that im not going to get into now either. And after all these years its still pains me to see the fuckin pan readout down in the lower right hand corner of the screen in the Font size of 2.. How fuckin retarded is that? No wonder people treat it like a toy.

Anyway, Samplitudes Audio Engine smokes everything out there. The best sounding engine, hands down. Write in Ableton, and then Mix in Samplitude. Been doing this for ages.

[diskowipe]

Samplitude does sound better. BY A LOT... Especially when you get into the larger track counts. Its just something you have to experience for yourself. I'm not going to try and sell anyone. You can find out on your own.

Plus, when it comes time to mix, ableton is really missing technical audio features that im not going to get into now either. And after all these years its still pains me to see the fuckin pan readout down in the lower right hand corner of the screen in the Font size of 2.. How fuckin retarded is that? No wonder people treat it like a toy.

Anyway, Samplitudes Audio Engine smokes everything out there. The best sounding engine, hands down. Write in Ableton, and then Mix in Samplitude. Been doing this for ages.

exactly my feelings, my last post was trying to be understanding to the forum, but you are right it sounds stellar.

i think alot of people who have only ever used ableton cant even find out for themselves cause ableton is so easy, they maybe download another DAW and cant even get it to make a sound

[mr.ergonomics]

just to understand... you say that it sounds better when you render all tracks separately in live ( example...you have 12 tracks, so you get 12 wav files...), import them in cubase/samplitude/logic and sum them there, right?

[kb420]

FWIW, I still like mixing in Sonar. I seem to get results a little easier when mixing with Sonar as opposed to Live, but for composing I still choose Live.

I still think it's mostly placebo, and even if it isn't, it still beats the hell out of a 4 track recorder.

[slicedbread]

i've always assumed it was something i was doing (or not) that was making my mixes grainy compared to when i used cubase vst ages ago (i still have some of those mixes). i wonder if a good option would be to continue to compose/mix in ableton and just as a final step, export stems, bring them into something else to JUST bounce down... no further mixing. what would be something simple and cheap for just that?

[davepermen]

ok, "ableton is bad at summing" people, if you can hear a differance it should be really easy to prove it (no offence here)!

I tried that often, I got perfect cancellation... so please try it and if you have a difference be so kind and post a snippet or something.

yeah, i'd like to hear proof, doing the IDENTICAL stuff in both, and then show the difference. I'd like to see that.

[kb420]

Without proof, I have to say it's just placebo.

[tigali]

Sequoia and samplitude are PC only right? So this is really a Mac Vs PC debate. Has anyone ever had that discussion on the internet before? Maybe we should start one now.

[kb420]

Sequoia and samplitude are PC only right? So this is really a Mac Vs PC debate . Has anyone ever had that discussion on the internet before? Maybe we should start one now.

[diskowipe]

just to understand... you say that it sounds better when you render all tracks separately on live, import them in cubase/samplitude/logic and sum them there, right?

im not talking about just throwing audio in and saying it sounds so much better (it does a little though)

but once you start moving the faders, making gain changes and using 3rd party plugs for mixing, the differences become very apparent. samplitude sounds much more transparent and the same 3rd party plugs i could use in live sound much better when i use them in samplitude

for instance, If i insert a Waves L3-LL Multiband Limiter on an audio track in ableton with a kit from my NI Maschine, once i start getting past 3 db of gain reduction, there are audible artifact/distortions, getting down to 6db of gain reduction and the distortions are overwhelming.

Load up the exact same Maschine kit in samplitude and the Waves L3, I can slam the threshold almost all the way down and it's still smooth, no artifacts at all, no distortions.

as i said, there are things happening in Live that are related to it's real-time functionality that are causing the coloration that everyone hears.

I dont go on forums very often but i do not understand why this same discussion has been going on for so many years now.

There are thousands of negative threads about abletons "sound quality" all over the internet and not a single one about Logic, Nuendo, Samplitude or whatever else. Isn't that proof enough?

same thing with reason, both these programs have been discussed countless times for their perceived sound quality over the years, that mere fact in itself means something