Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Machinate
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by Machinate » Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:55 pm

... just epic. What an amazing sense of space you have, my man.

- it sounds so good, it must clearly be made in ProTools. And you can't prove that Live *doesn't* eat kittens. You can't!
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

pix
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by pix » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:21 am

3dot... wrote:well... Samplitude can render from marker to marker into seperate wavs...
which I use a lot in editing...
live doesn't have that...
Logic has notation... so does Cubase...
cubase does batch processings/rendering..
and ProToolsLE has no auto latency compensation...
(besides the fact that all have different fx and instruments)
so of course there is a difference... I'm not suggesting otherwise..
but saying there is audio degredation by just routing the audio through...with no processing...
kinda makes no sense...
besides the fact that audio engineers (such as myself) are using it...
(I would not use a tool that degrades my sound for no reason...)
I don't know you ... so although I really want to trust your ears..I can't...
please don't take offense... but I do believe IT IS a Placebo effect..(or some other effect/syndrome)
although you don't care... I challenge you to
prove me wrong.. :|
shouldn't be too hard... do a null test...

I just realized that I can't do a sum test on this because I'm recording real time audio (jomox 999) so it won't work the same way as a softsynth rendering or some other sample accurate thing. But looking at the audio spectrum may give us a hint of what's going on.

Also, the jomox being analog doesn't output equal hits every time so this may not have been the best choice. I have to go to bed now but tomorrow I'll repeat this with a commercial CD. I'll record one entire song through Live or directly through RMEs total mix and then compare the spectrum. If there are any differences they should become apparent. Having a kick, snare and hats is not that complex either so.

BUT, there may be something in here already or at least this looks like the difference I hear.

These are 4 tracks from the jomox routed to independent inputs on the RME. The "direct" sound is the sum of those 4 sounds done internally inside total mix, and then the stereo output fed into Audacity and recorded at 44.1/32.

The "Live sum" track has the same inputs routed through independent tracks in Live into the master that goes out into the the same internal bus in the total mix and this is recorded into Audacity.

I tried to trim a region where there were no major differences between the hits. One thing that became apparent though is how Live loses some of the transients.

Here are the two respective files.

http://pixmusic.net/misc/Direct2.wav
http://pixmusic.net/misc/LiveSum2.wav

As I said I tried to subtract them but they're not 100% in sync and there are obvious differences between the hits. Again, this may be a potential caveat but I don't think this would explain all the differences.

But I'll do a better test tomorrow.

Here are the analysis plots. I don't know if it's the best analysis to make but here it is. What I think is interesting is that there are clear differences depending on which region of the spectrum you are. The most apparent one is in the hi frequencies. This is very clear to me just hearing it. You lose "air", Live kind of muffles things up. Maybe it's not that apparent in this example but there's definitely a difference in spectrum. As i said i'll do a better test tomorrow.

Direct (linear scale)
Image



Live Sum (linear scale)
Image



Now, I'm not here to argue with anyone and my point is not to bash Live. I'm just genuinely interested in knowing if this is really true or if I'm doing something wrong somewhere.

SubFunk
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by SubFunk » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:15 am

henke wrote:my point was slightly more subtile: it took me less than 3 minutes to record the voice into an existing project, apply some edits, move some of the existing parts, added reverb, and bounce the result. 3 minutes of fun and the result sounds okay to me. ;-)

robert
what? You had good sounding fun? tsss, tsss, tsss...
*** Image GAFM ***

henke
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by henke » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:23 am

the screenshots exactly show why this whole discussion is pointless. I am sorry to disappoint you, but their information is zero in the context of the discussion.

Do you know what "windowing" mean? And how the window function is related to song time in your DAW? You can post three graphs of the same position in the song and they will look different. ( And you can spend a long time to define "same position" in the context of a windowed FFT function ).

If you want the audio signal to chang; Move your head in front of the speakers by two degrees.
Someone can apply an EQ and boost some frequencies in the sum by +-2dB while you'll having coffee and you would not notice. And it would not change anything in the music.

Robert

henke
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by henke » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:42 am

(double post )
Last edited by henke on Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

henke
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by henke » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:44 am

And to make things more complex:

If you use a soft synth, how can you be sure that the voices are re-triggered sample accurate? How do you know if there is random involved in the modeling of the oscillators? Are LFOs re-triggered? Are the envelopes calculated blockwise ? If you use plug ins, there might be MIDI Jitter involved.
things will never cancel out.


Try first to test if two copies of a single track created with each synthesizer cancels out..........................................

Robert

pix
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by pix » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:21 am

I just can't understand why the angry tone.

regarding the windowing function you were mentioning could it cause the overall amplitude decrease in the high frequencies we see here?

Because the windowing is the same in the analysis of the two files. they have the same length as well. Am I missing something?

And using Live never stopped me from making music either. but that's not what we're discussing. We're addessing if there are *any* differences between different summing engines.

Some people say that they're *exactly* the same. I'm arguing that they might not be so.

Machinate
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by Machinate » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:44 am

pix wrote:I just can't understand why the angry tone.
I don't think it's anger. It's frustration. And it's frustating, because this isn't the first time it's been discussed here. Nor the second. I think there have been dozens of threads about this, all of which have contained the classic "I'm not saying there's anything wrong, I just think it's worth discussing", the other clasic being "prove to me that it doesn't colour the sound", and then every now and then someone will make an attempt to prove one statement or the other.

You may argue that "they might not be so", but then your test scenario is soooo out there.
okay, let's combine a few items.
I just realized that I can't do a sum test on this
as I said I tried to subtract them but they're not 100% in sync
combine that with a 512 sample fft window and you're really not going to get any useful information...

Even the most dedicated "Summing Nut Audiophile Inflamed by Live" (or S.N.A.I.L.) would have a hard time justifying that.
So yes, you're asking if you're doing something wrong... I'm afraid you are.

now, 3phase is just clearly trolling...
mbp 2.66, osx 10.6.8, 8GB ram.

henke
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by henke » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:06 am

pix wrote:I just can't understand why the angry tone.

regarding the windowing function you were mentioning could it cause the overall amplitude decrease in the high frequencies we see here?

Because the windowing is the same in the analysis of the two files. they have the same length as well. Am I missing something?

And using Live never stopped me from making music either. but that's not what we're discussing. We're addessing if there are *any* differences between different summing engines.

Some people say that they're *exactly* the same. I'm arguing that they might not be so.

Hi Pix, it was not my intention to come across as angry. As Machinate said, it is just frustration. The point is, digital audio is a complex matter, and there is a reason why people study computer science and read papers filled with mathematic shit in order to work out details. I am far away from understanding it all in every detail, but I understand enough to be able to judge what makes sense in a discussion and what not. Approx. 99,99% of what have been said here about digital audio in terms of actual DAW coding practice stays on the surface. And that's okay, because this is not the DSP developer forum here. Go there to get an idea about the real shit and the real issues. You would be surprised.

The discussion is pointless, because it is no musical. One one side, people argue about distortions in the range of -120dB and at the same time, in a creative process, and this is what we are talking about here, people use nonlinear distortions all the time to actually create the result. As soon as you touch a fader , add an EQ, you alter the sound. Add vintage warmer or something and distortion is all over the place. If 10% distortion of the signal sounds "warm", do you think that 0.00000001 distortion due to rounding errors will make any difference? And if so, is there no way to adjust the mix that it makes sense again, which is wad people do all the time when mixing. You record with a microphone. It is not linear. So, you EQ it till it fits. You hear the sound via speakers in a room. You adjust it till it fits. Nothing there is perfect or linear. Why bothering with esoteric details of DAW implementations. Better try finding the best position for your speakers in the studio.

If people cannot get good sounding music out of *any* DAW these days, it is not the fault of the tool.

Robert

Leon Tricker
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by Leon Tricker » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:19 am

henke wrote:The discussion is pointless, because it is not musical.
+1.

Does any of this discussion matter when you are in a club and hearing a track through a PA at 3am? Or on the radio? Or when someone downloads a tune and sticks it on their MP3 player?

Some of the best, most inspiring music I know of was recorded on primitive, cheap gear. Music and emotion is important, not the detail being discussed here.

The technical issues debated in this thread seem more important to people than creative expression and having fun. It reminds me of being in bands with guitarists that stressed over having the purest tone, searching for the perfect pick-ups, leads and amps... only to put a £50.00 Boss distortion on everything!

Maybe I am naive. If so then this is the one occasion I am glad to be ignorant!

evernaut
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by evernaut » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:46 am

henke wrote: The discussion is pointless....

If people cannot get good sounding music out of *any* DAW these days, it is not the fault of the tool.

Robert

Bang on target Robert.

shatzer
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by shatzer » Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:44 pm

Leon Tricker wrote:
henke wrote:The discussion is pointless, because it is not musical.
This forum is pointless, because it is not musical.
:D

starving student
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by starving student » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:43 am

shatzer wrote:
Leon Tricker wrote:
henke wrote:The discussion is pointless, because it is not musical.
This forum is pointless, because it is not musical.
:D
speak for yerself sonny, what are doing here anyway didn't you pro-your-tools? :mrgreen:
or did you come to your senses?

shatzer
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by shatzer » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:06 am

[/quote]speak for yerself sonny, what are doing here anyway didn't you pro-your-tools? :mrgreen:
or did you come to your senses?[/quote]

lol. Have you been to the pro tools forums????? Bunch of noobs. Atleast the Ableton forum is interesting even tho I don't use it anymore, i still love the product. It's what popped my cherry into engineering. I mean, I've used many many many software editors before but it was the 1st I actually held onto and enjoyed making music in. I guess Ableton has some "sentimental value" to me. lol

Besides, where else can u find a bunch of people with difference in opinions and argue a bunch of arguements that noone will win and then jump on each others cases and call each other names and get banned by the Gears of War dude (DOM) for making smart remarks and mentally unstable people posting about how Live sucks and its destroyed their lives and pictures of cake?

Tone Deft
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Re: Samplitude user disses Live as 'shit for mixing in' at GS

Post by Tone Deft » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:14 am

shatzer wrote:
speak for yerself sonny, what are doing here anyway didn't you pro-your-tools? :mrgreen:
or did you come to your senses?
lol. Have you been to the pro tools forums????? Bunch of noobs. Atleast the Ableton forum is interesting even tho I don't use it anymore, i still love the product. It's what popped my cherry into engineering. I mean, I've used many many many software editors before but it was the 1st I actually held onto and enjoyed making music in. I guess Ableton has some "sentimental value" to me. lol

Besides, where else can u find a bunch of people with difference in opinions and argue a bunch of arguements that noone will win and then jump on each others cases and call each other names and get banned by the Gears of War dude (DOM) for making smart remarks and mentally unstable people posting about how Live sucks and its destroyed their lives and pictures of cake?
it's like reading Mr Bean goes online. he's completely clueless. amazing. deer in the headlights. 8O

/gasps in wonder, gently pokes Shatzer with a stick...
In my life
Why do I smile
At people who I'd much rather kick in the eye?
-Moz

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