Logic 7 is still no match for Live-4

mi.po · Post by **mi.po** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:01 am

Having WaveBurner included within Logic Pro 7 - even I am Live user, this feature is bringing Logic to the "serious" software area.

Logic is back in business allowing us process, edit and BURN (!) your stuff.

If Live can do this in the future . . . well, for midi I would still prefer Logic.
These two will definitelly live next to each on my computer.

nosuch · Post by **nosuch** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:11 pm

hoffman2k wrote:The cool things about apps like logic or cubase are the plug-ins that are included. But you pay way to much for the few support you get (at least with steinberg)
All the technical stuff that makes these such welknown apps, will end up in Live eventualy i hope.
The next Reason must be something great too. The Props are not hiring programmers to sample drum kits. lets hope they make some more synths

cheers

I agree that comparing live and logic makes no sense. on the other hand - all the features you pay for when buying logic make no sense for many users.

I really hope that propellerhead will take the step and tranform their instruments into vst/au. that would make using them in live much easier. ok, rewire actually works but I am a one-song-one-file-man so I find myself using reason less since live 4 - only if I really need special sounds from malmström or the sampler.

tribalogical · Post by **tribalogical** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:43 pm

yeah, I'm jumping on that "no comparison" bandwagon too......

Logic & SX (I mention both cos I use both) are full-featured DAWs..... Live's focus is, well, *live* applications -- live performing, composing on the fly, improvising, jamming, and performance playback.... (and you can arrange that into solid near-finished, presentable stuff...). Nothing beats it for that, IMHO...

Sure, you can use Live as a DAW too... mostly... but, well, in the end, I think that's actually doing it the hard(er) way...

I definitely use Live more than either DAW for initial composing, trying things out, sketching, jamming, just having fun (which it is naturally more suited to than the more "studio-focused" nature of the DAWs)...

That isn't to say Live isn't a great studio tool as well... it fits beautifully there, in part thanks to rewire... man, once I've got some solid ideas down in Live, and I want to get into serious tracking, mixing, enhancing, that's when Live piped into one of those DAWs really shines as a component of the greater whole....

But for me, much as I love (and constantly use) Live, it's more like my PDA compared to my full computer. Excellent, inestimably useful (and now necessary for me! Like Reason!), but it's not the ultimate tool for making things "release ready"...

Of course, I could eat those words!

Anyone know of some popular releases done entirely in Live? (I mean end-to-end: compose, mix, master?)

In the end, I hope Live keeps its focus... I've got DAWs for what they do... I like Live for what it's best at... if it gets "transformed" into a full-on DAW, I fear it may lose some of what really makes it work for me......

just one opinion though!

peace,
tribalogical

majestic · Post by **majestic** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:45 pm

tribalogical wrote:it's not the ultimate tool for making things "release ready"...
Anyone know of some popular releases done entirely in Live? (I mean end-to-end: compose, mix, master?)

Hey, Live 4's very new, give it some time before asking for examples of releases!!!

Logic etc. have only recently entered the arena of being serious final production tools. I've made three albums and a soundtrack (and various other things) using both software and hardware sequencers (mostly Cubase and an MC500), but in every case the final product was dumped to ProTools or tape by the engineer for mixing and mastered somewhere else.

That's not what Live is about. It isn't designed for that, but it's way more than just a tool for live performance. Well, for me it is, anyway.

Jordan Vesteyo · Post by **Jordan Vesteyo** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:30 pm

This whole debate between Live and Logic, I use both for different things. Nothing can touch Live instant audio stretching, and triggering for live gigs. It has completely replaced my Live PA setup, the quantized trigering of Loops/Sections is amazing. I did not buy Live until two thing happened.
First, thi ability to swing audio, it really allows you to sit lopps together 'in the pocket', and second the adition of MIDI. Now the midi implementation is good but still has along way to go before its has the close to the same feel as Logic. But that's not the point, I'm sure Ableton doesn't want to make Live into a full blown sequencer, it would start to be too cluttered and bog down your writing (improvisational) experience. Live 4 is AMAZING software and I commend the Ableton Guys for a super job. I love to start projects in live and Rewire into Logic...... Now Logic 7, I have used Logic for over 7 years now, and it does nothing but impress me now. With Apples take over , YES it was a hard pill to swallow, but now the infusion of Apple cash has allowed Logic to become a great piece of software, you now get Pluggins worth over $2500 dollars.... for $999, that was before they added alll the 7 features, new synths and effects. Too much too explain here. Excet for one thing.......... Node processing..... now you can have un;imited amounts of processing power at your disposal. You can start a project on your Laptop, hook up a another gigabit ethernet mac (or more than one) and run more pluggins and effects than you could ever imagine or fathom. Unlimited power. This probably would not have been possable on a dual platform. This is why one platform is sometimes a great idea.

shaneblyth · Post by **shaneblyth** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:30 pm

ryst wrote:I don't care what comes out. Live 4 is still the software to beat. But it will never be.

So when did you get Logic 7 ?
must be great to be able to get stuff and use it and then tell us normal folk whats it like to use in comparison.

are you a beta tester then of logic 7 ?

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:48 am

shaneblyth wrote:
ryst wrote:I don't care what comes out. Live 4 is still the software to beat. But it will never be.
So when did you get Logic 7 ?
must be great to be able to get stuff and use it and then tell us normal folk whats it like to use in comparison.

are you a beta tester then of logic 7 ?

W T F ???

Mr. Shane... please take better care to quote the actual post in a topic that you are responding to. Ryst never mentioned owning, using, or testing Logic 7. Outside of this thread, every response you gave in the Mac vs. Pc Laptops thread also quoted a post entirely unrelated to your response. You're supposed to quote posts that are relevant to your response. No one will take you seriously until you learn how to use a forum properly.

shaneblyth · Post by **shaneblyth** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:33 am

AdamJay wrote:
shaneblyth wrote:
ryst wrote:I don't care what comes out. Live 4 is still the software to beat. But it will never be.
So when did you get Logic 7 ?
must be great to be able to get stuff and use it and then tell us normal folk whats it like to use in comparison.

are you a beta tester then of logic 7 ?
W T F ???

Mr. Shane... please take better care to quote the actual post in a topic that you are responding to. Ryst never mentioned owning, using, or testing Logic 7. Outside of this thread, every response you gave in the Mac vs. Pc Laptops thread also quoted a post entirely unrelated to your response. You're supposed to quote posts that are relevant to your response. No one will take you seriously until you learn how to use a forum properly.

did i get it right this time ? too many alte nights maybe sorry.
but i still say hoe can anyone right off logic 7 with out even seeing it ?
it is vapourware unless someone is a beta tester ?

ryst · Post by **ryst** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:25 pm

come on, guys! I was just trying to boost our collective Ableton ego around here. Just trying to let everyone know that I am not going to jump from app to app because of new features that have come out. I have been using DP and Live since I started recording and mixing and I am not going to switch no matter what other apps come out with in the future. I trust Ableton and I back there software 1000%. Some guys at the Apple Store in ATL tried to tell me that Live is only good for remixing and sound design. HA HA!!! He showed me Logic and I am very familiar with the program but I am not buying it. My post was for the Ableton employees. I needed to tell them I am here to stay. And that's what I did.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:17 am

it's not what you use, it's what you do with it.

example - a great guitarist playing a $90 beat up guitar will still be more entertaining to listen to than a shitty guitarist with a $5000 vintage les paul.

Features, sound quality, gimmiks. who cares. what can you do with it? I'm pretty sure that somewhere in the world right now, a teenage kid is making a recording on a cassette four track and a radio shack microphone that is completely mind blowing.

I'm so tired of all the arguments over sound quality. You know what? A pro tools HD3 system certainly has better sound quality and assloads more editing power than the old tape four tracks that George Martin used to record those great old Beatles records. So why are those Beatles records so much more compelling than almost anything current? Why? Because what you DO with what you have is more important than WHAT you have.

I don't care if Logic 7 has a feature that tickles my asshole with feathers while i mix. I will never go back to using something like that again. It has too many goddamned features. I end up mucking around with some stupid thing instead of composing good strong material. That's why i stopped using DP, i got tired of having to deal with so many windows and tiny little details. Live is super fast and stays out of my way while i work with it. Thats why i love it.

-lm

noisetonepause · Post by **noisetonepause** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:53 am

leisuremuffin wrote:I'm so tired of all the arguments over sound quality. You know what? A pro tools HD3 system certainly has better sound quality and assloads more editing power than the old tape four tracks that George Martin used to record those great old Beatles records. So why are those Beatles records so much more compelling than almost anything current? Why? Because what you DO with what you have is more important than WHAT you have.

Well... I'm so tired of this argument, because A) The Beatles weren't very good, in my opinion and B) If the compressor plug you use sucks all the bass or high frequency out of what you pass through it, or your EQ sucks, you're going to end up with a pretty wanky sounding mix, and a good tune with a great mix is better than another good tune with a crap mix.

Ofcourse technology, sound quality and possibilities matter... would we have had Metallica if Kirk Hammet had never played anything but a mandolin with three strings missing? I think not.

(so somebody get me a time machine and a mandolin!)

Another point: tape sounds MUCH better than hard disc, and an top flight analogue mixer sounds better than any computer, so your argument is actually invalid to begin with.

-Paws

::mic-minimal:: · Post by **::mic-minimal::** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:22 am

pause i think you missed his point, but besides that you're right.

leisuremuffin · Post by **leisuremuffin** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:00 pm

noisetonepause wrote:
leisuremuffin wrote:I'm so tired of all the arguments over sound quality. You know what? A pro tools HD3 system certainly has better sound quality and assloads more editing power than the old tape four tracks that George Martin used to record those great old Beatles records. So why are those Beatles records so much more compelling than almost anything current? Why? Because what you DO with what you have is more important than WHAT you have.
Well... I'm so tired of this argument, because A) The Beatles weren't very good, in my opinion and B) If the compressor plug you use sucks all the bass or high frequency out of what you pass through it, or your EQ sucks, you're going to end up with a pretty wanky sounding mix, and a good tune with a great mix is better than another good tune with a crap mix.

Ofcourse technology, sound quality and possibilities matter... would we have had Metallica if Kirk Hammet had never played anything but a mandolin with three strings missing? I think not.

(so somebody get me a time machine and a mandolin!)

Another point: tape sounds MUCH better than hard disc, and an top flight analogue mixer sounds better than any computer, so your argument is actually invalid to begin with.

-Paws

I agree that sound quality and technology matter, however, my point is that they don't matter nearly as much as the intelligence of the user. Perhaps the tape analogy is a bad one for sound quality (especially considering that George Martin had use of WAY better outboard gear than most of us) but i think it stands in terms of editing. Those Beartles records that you don't care for are still really incredible by virtue of the fact that they were done on for track tape machines with very little editing capabilities and using ping pong bouncing to fit all the parts. Listen to a track like "Blue Jay Way" or "I am the Walrus" and think about what it would have been like to do that with a 4 track tape machine.

BTW, i should have added the very big caveat that HD "technically" has better sound quality than tape. The way we percieve sound is different than how it looks mathmatically.

Also, on your other point about dynamic and filter effects:

a good engineer will use a mediocre eq or compressor better than someone who does not know how to use those effects will use a great eq or compressor. Same exact thing as my guitar analogy. Fuck, a lot of people using compression can't even tell you what the ratio means. How the hell is having a great compressor plug in going to help them?

Look, there's another stupid ass post about the quality of Live's summing buss on this forum again. Who cares? I'm sure that i can make a better mix in Live than a lot of people can in whatever DAW they want to use. And i'm also sure that there are a great deal of people who can do far better than i can. My thing is that i want to focus on becoming a better engineer, not on reading spec sheets for every possible tool available. I'm aware of the cold hard fact that buying better equipment or better software won't make me better. only work and experience can do that.

lm

MarkH · Post by **MarkH** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:27 pm

tribalogical wrote:Anyone know of some popular releases done entirely in Live? (I mean end-to-end: compose, mix, master?)

Chris Cowie - New Life EP released on F1 Recordings. Appeared in U.S. record shops about a month ago.

The EP was done entirely in Live 3 using only Live's plugins. He broke it down a while back on this forum. Although I think mastering was done at the vinyl dup house because that's part of the distro contract. Not 100% on this though. Whatever you do, don't ask him about Logic. And don't say I didn't warn ya!

stevo · Post by **stevo** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:33 am

mi.po wrote:Having WaveBurner included within Logic Pro 7 - even I am Live user, this feature is bringing Logic to the "serious" software area.

Logic is back in business allowing us process, edit and BURN (!) your stuff.

If Live can do this in the future . . . well, for midi I would still prefer Logic.
These two will definitelly live next to each on my computer.

Where does it say that WB Pro is included? Do I keep skipping over that part of their documentation??

I'm pissed at emagic for not releasing a standalone OSX version of WB Pro for those of us who used it religiously in OS9!

Logic 7 is still no match for Live-4

Mastering audio . . . very important

Re: Logic 7 is still no match for Live-4

Re: Logic 7 is still no match for Live-4

Re: Logic 7 is still no match for Live-4

Re: Mastering audio . . . very important