Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
stringtapper
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by stringtapper » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:50 am

leedsquietman wrote:...better than a whole disenfranchised group of users who don't want to shell out $299 for something that they don't understand and who will whine endlessly about how expensive M4L is...
Disenfranchised? Get serious. No one is forcing anyone to buy Max for Live. You make it sound like people have to buy it just because it's new.

It seems a lot of people have "shiny new toy fever" over M4L but then are saying "Oh but I don't like what it actually is, I want it to be different."
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leedsquietman
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by leedsquietman » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:47 am

You get serious.

A significant amount of Live users don't want to have to pony up another $300 (significant money in a world recession) for something they have no clue how to use, yet they would like to be able to use some of the devices created.

Therefore it makes sense to make a scaled down version which is runtime only. At a reasonable price point.

You only have to look at the feedback to the Max4Live pricing from a significant number of people here to realise that their is an undercurrent of discontent from some. I'm not one of them but I won't be shelling out $300 for the full M4L unless I come into some serious money / win a lottery anytime soon. However, a $99 dollar version which allows me to use some of those devices - I'd give it serious thought and maybe save for it. And options to upgrade for later if the bug catches.

Just because you are an experienced user and fanboy of Max and would be happy to pay 600 bucks for it don't think that everyone feels the same. Most Live users are not going to be Max fanatics spending hundreds of hours learning and building devices, they just want instant tools that help them create music. Live Suite is already the most expensive DAW out there (except for Samplitude Pro). Suite users at least should get some consideration - they could scale it so Suite users get a $30 dollar discount or something (on a runtime version)
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Android Bishop
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by Android Bishop » Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:25 am

glitchrock-buddha wrote:I guess I'm in the minority here, but I don't think it's that reasonable to demand M4L "runtime" for free or 50 bucks. The thing is going to be packed with new live devices (midi and audio effects, cool granular toysm synths). And a huge percentage of the sales will be from people who will never build a thing. If I were ableton, and I wanted to be fair, I would charge exactly what they are charging.

Just my opinion, but I think people may be expecting a bit much for too little these days.

Give them money for M4L so they can spend the next while focusing on making Live 8 as stable as Live 6 was.
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leedsquietman
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by leedsquietman » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:50 am

I think the majority will pay a fair price such as $99 for Suite users and $119 to $129 for Live (non-suite) for a runtime version of M4L with upgrade options to the full product. The majority of M4L users, like Reaktor users are not going to subject themselves to learning the structure of making devices for themselves, therefore it makes sense to reach out to this market and have the chance to earn money that otherwise might not be there - just like Live itself comes in light, medium and full flavours to appeal to different needs and budgets. Making it an all or nothing product gives less choice and more potential for lost sales - potentially at least. Most of us don't just have $300 dollars burning a hole in out pocket for something we don't understand how to use - yes, there's an option to 'well don't buy it, no one's forcing you' but there will be cool devices which improve the Live experience which will then be inaccessible for many and the runtime version offers a flexible compromise.

As software matures and more things are added, it's very difficult to get stability like there was 2-3 versions ago. This is perhaps why a total rebuild from the ground up may become necessary after Live 9.
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steff3
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by steff3 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:59 am

[quote="leedsquietman"]You get serious.

A significant amount of Live users don't want to have to pony up another $300 (significant money in a world recession) for something they have no clue how to use, yet they would like to be able to use some of the devices created.

Therefore it makes sense to make a scaled down version which is runtime only. At a reasonable price point.

You only have to look at the feedback to the Max4Live pricing from a significant number of people here to realise that their is an undercurrent of discontent from some. )[/quote]


Why would they want to do that? If they give away a runtime for free then they will earn less money, because if only one of those who are considering to buy, they earn money, giving it away for free will most like bring their income down ... a runtime at US$50 - they earn more money not offering a more affordable runtime at that price if 1 out of 5 buys the product (at full price), even if 4 decided not to buy it. (mathematically 17% of the interested needed to buy the full version for it being not worth it - and I think it is not unrealistic that 17% out of the interested (not including those that already decided to buy the full version or get a discount) will actually end up buying the full version. at US$99 it is 33%, still a number to think about ) ... As soon as they offer a runtime it takes sales away from the full version, so it would not be a smart move to offer it immediately ....

They have the full version now and offers for Max5 and pluggo users, and with the next live update you will get a bundle where it is more affordable than if you buy it as separate product.

So, a little maths seems more serious than anything else ...

best

leedsquietman
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by leedsquietman » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:00 am

Disagree - volume of sales - there will be probably be 3 or 4 people willing to buy a runtime version at 1/3rd the cost (99 dollars) than 1 person willing to spend the full amount. And 3 or 4 people buying leads to more recommendations plus at least 1-2 of those people will probably upgrade anyway later. And more people getting into the product creates a buzz. And as that buzz grows, it goes viral and creates an even bigger buzz - then more and more noobs will want to upgrade and learn and have a big appreciative market to make devices for, instead of a small geeky collection of anorak wearing Max nerds ;) (joking before you take this seriously)

Like a soccer game you could charge 100 dollars a ticket and get 10,000 people in the stadium or charge 35 dollars and get 30,000 - your stadium has more of a buzz with more people, even if the income is similar.

How do you think Walmart became what they are ? Volume sales - people might not like 'em but they are still standing and weathering the recession better than many other retailers.
Last edited by leedsquietman on Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Emissary
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by Emissary » Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:04 am

I dont know why your all arguing M4L will probably be about £150 at some point in the future during a special "deal" and then we'll have to put up with the early adopters moaning like penguin prostitutes.

anyway i agree

M4L runtime for suite owners $99
M4L runtime non suite owners $150 or so

Hermanus
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by Hermanus » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:17 am

150 it's almost half the price I paid for Live 8 upgrade from Live 7 lite_

Not ready to drop 250euros for full M4L at the moment...
but I'm glad for having tested the beta_even if I havn't anything to report, not used to max :wink:

leedsquietman
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by leedsquietman » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:33 am

Yes, I think $99 - $129 is a fair pricing range with Suite users in at the low end of this scale for a runtime version.
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crumhorn
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by crumhorn » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:46 am

This thread reminds me of the old joke - "94.7% of all statistics are invented on the spot."
"The banjo is the perfect instrument for the antisocial."

(Allow me to plug my guitar scale visualiser thingy - www.fretlearner.com)

Fieldy
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by Fieldy » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:59 am

so my point is: i have no money at all as a student. 300 $ are fair. it`s not up to us to discuss any price. we didn`t have any work to get this running. we don`t know how much work they had to do all that stuff ,so i think it`s up to them how to get their work paid. in my opinion ableton is a great company and their stuff is not overpriced. i mean, quality costs and users want to have it running in upcoming operating systems on pc and mac.

Fieldy
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by Fieldy » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:01 am

it`s the attitude , i want more and i want it cheaper which is the biggest quality-killer

alex.the.forge
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by alex.the.forge » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:11 am

stringtapper wrote:
glitchrock-buddha wrote:I guess I'm in the minority here, but I don't think it's that reasonable to demand M4L "runtime" for free or 50 bucks. The thing is going to be packed with new live devices (midi and audio effects, cool granular toysm synths). And a huge percentage of the sales will be from people who will never build a thing. If I were ableton, and I wanted to be fair, I would charge exactly what they are charging.

Just my opinion, but I think people may be expecting a bit much for too little these days.
+1

This whining about "I deserve free shit!" is getting old.

Free M4L runtime? I've got a better idea: just pretend you never heard of M4L and go about your business making music the way you already do.

Also, to those who compare Max Runtime with a possible M4L Runtime: realize that M4L will probably be able to work in Demo Mode as it is, which is conceptually identical to Max Runtime (i.e. you can't save anything in Max Runtime either). A M4L Runtime would be more than that because you could save your work in Live. The reason Max Runtime exists is so that a patch can be performed by someone who doesn't have Max installed or has different specs than the creator of the patch. Running Live in demo mode with M4L running as well would be exactly the same functionality (a performance-oriented functionality).
I dunno, I don;t think it's exactly the same in demo mode really, there already is a Max runtime, it's not like this request is unfounded

If you used the Max runtime to use a max created plug-in, you'd still be able to save the plug-in state in Live, even if you couldn't make changes to the plug-in itself

I mean who would want to use any of the devices provided within M4L without saving the state of the parameters? What if you used several of those Pluggos in a Live set?

not really the same thing

I will be really surprised if there is not ever a runtime version, it makes far too much sense, there would be heaps of people (me included) who would seriously consider $99 for a runtime, but not $299 for the full version - I just can't justify it as I'm unlikely to be one of the ones creating my own patches

4/4
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by 4/4 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:29 am

alex.the.forge wrote: I dunno, I don;t think it's exactly the same in demo mode really, there already is a Max runtime, it's not like this request is unfounded
ya, and maxmspjitter has always cost $700 (still does)
and the PLUGGO suite always cost $200, there's 40+ PLUGGOS included. (discontinued to repackage as M4L content)
and now the convenience of having maxmspjitter built into LIVE. (a god send)

Really, I totally empathise with the folks who are seeking a free or very affordable runtime, but why are people trying so hard to overlook the obvious bang-for-buck being given at the $299 pricetag ?


The axe I'm grinding is for the lame discount for PLUGGO licensees, but I digress...
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:13 pm

Aren't there plenty of Max geeks out there who will glady pony up the $399 in order to start creating cool shit for M4L?

Is Ableton going to go under if they offer a reduced price or free runtime?

Has a free runtime hurt Cycling74? Or has the free runtime promoted Max and attracted new buyers for the full version?



No runtime version, only the full M4L = $X profits

vs.

Full M4L + reduced cost runtime version = $Y profits.

You need not have gone to Harvard Business School to know that Y profit potential is going to kick X profit potential's ass.

:P
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But stayed for the :x

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