Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
4/4
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by 4/4 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:22 pm

what kind of cars do you think Gerhard Behles owns ?
that should be Z in the equation
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LoopStationZebra
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:24 pm

4/4 wrote:what kind of cars do you think Gerhard Behles owns ?
that should be Z in the equation

lol
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leedsquietman
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by leedsquietman » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:48 pm

+1 Emissary and King Of Loops.

Ableton Live is a fantastic program and we all love it. But Max is a new thing for much of the live userbase and all good businesses offer an incentive / loss leader to introduce the product, create a demand and then jack up prices. Also, $300 is a lot of money and Live Suite, however fantastic it is is a very expensive DAW, which also has one of the fastest upgrade turnover cycles of any product and Ableton recently abandoned discounted upgrades on educational products. It's not a question of being a 'whiner who wants a bunch of free stuff', I appreciate that Ableton have occasional sales, discount coupons from time to time and have given free live paks occasionally etc and are a more human company. People will pay fair prices but the benefits with M4L will take some getting used to and appreciating for many.

But in a global recession, Apple and Steinberg reduced the cost of their sequencers and upgrade costs, also had giveaways and more free content at a time when Ableton raised prices and abandoned educational discounts. To then charge a whole bunch of money for Max4Live and not give an accessible, upgradable (at cost) path to getting into Max4Live, with Live 9 probably only just around the corner (I would be surprised if the beta is not out within about 4 months or so given the upgrade path they've historically taken) it's getting seriously expensive to keep up with Live and it's add-ons. A certain ratio will say 'don't upgrade then, don't buyMax4Live, don't piss in the bathtub' or whatever. We WANT to buy. We want Ableton (and now Cycling 74) to be successful. They might not go with a runtime for Max4Live, but as seen there is plenty of interest in it. It's just an opinion. Those better off through hard work, (and a certain number who get nice handouts from mommy and daddy and don't have to pay a mortgage) who can afford to buy an APC40, a Launchpad, Max4Live, and upgrade to Live 9 without even blinking as it's the price of a couple of nights out, small beer, will probably not get this notion. Those people who say 'well, max/msp/jitter costs $700 and you're getting it for $300' - many Live users have no interest in spending 700 dollars on those features. They just want a few cool devices like you can get in Reaktor for much less money. So the value to those users is not $700 and it's not a consolation to be 'only' $300.

Anyway, nuff said and more plus. PLenty of users are interested in a fairly priced run time M4L. It is just some food for thought and if Ableton don't do it I'm not going to throw my toys out of the pram and sell my Live license. I will just contemplate a missed opportunity and get on with life.
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Hermanus
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by Hermanus » Sat Nov 21, 2009 2:55 pm

Well about suite... I upgraded from lite for 269€... now with the 20% off I could gebtly upgrade to suite for 189€.

I would gladly give the money for suite rather than M4L, just my pov_ and only fools don't change their mind
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by synnack » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:10 pm

3dot... wrote:I think a 'runtime' should be included in the suite...
the edit button should cost the extra 299...
(either way .I'm getting it...)
This is exactly what I would do if I were Ableton.

I think eventually they will need to go in this direction. When talking to some max developers about www.maxforlive.com one of the things people say is that they would only share their devices/patches if users could NOT edit them.

Some people worry that users will take their devices, change them slightly, and repackage them as their own. If/when we see people starting to charge for their devices this issue will come up often. If there was an ability to share a device that could not be edited, and have any user run that for free, it makes potential business models based on M4L a lot more interesting.

Free runtime with Suite with no edit button ftw!
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4/4
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by 4/4 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:17 pm

tempus3r wrote:
3dot... wrote:I think a 'runtime' should be included in the suite...
the edit button should cost the extra 299...
(either way .I'm getting it...)
This is exactly what I would do if I were Ableton.

I think eventually they will need to go in this direction. When talking to some max developers about http://www.maxforlive.com one of the things people say is that they would only share their devices/patches if users could NOT edit them.

Some people worry that users will take their devices, change them slightly, and repackage them as their own. If/when we see people starting to charge for their devices this issue will come up often. If there was an ability to share a device that could not be edited, and have any user run that for free, it makes potential business models based on M4L a lot more interesting.

Free runtime with Suite with no edit button ftw!
I'm just curious how many people, exactly, have said this to you ?
it's obviously only a concern for content sellers, probably the same folks who've been hawking their wares here for sometime already.
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by synnack » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:26 pm

@4/4

I sometimes host IRC conversations about maxforlive on freenode (irc.freenode.net in #maxforlive). I had about 5 or 6 people join last time and one person made that statement and everyone else agreed.

So, 6?

Once m4l ships it will be easier to get a true consensus.
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LoopStationZebra
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:34 pm

tempus3r wrote:@4/4

I sometimes host IRC conversations about maxforlive on freenode (irc.freenode.net in #maxforlive). I had about 5 or 6 people join last time and one person made that statement and everyone else agreed.

So, 6?

Once m4l ships it will be easier to get a true consensus.

Pfft. The M4L community won't miss them. Christ. Already over at the beta forum the amount of cool shit that's being developed is staggering. 8O
Then I read that 7up is being ported over as we speak. Pfft.

And we're only what? A few weeks into this?

The same spirit that's clearly part of the Max community, where folks change people's patches with permission and offer credit and thanks at every turn, is just not likely to change with M4L.
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by synnack » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:45 pm

LoopStationZebra wrote:
tempus3r wrote:@4/4

I sometimes host IRC conversations about maxforlive on freenode (irc.freenode.net in #maxforlive). I had about 5 or 6 people join last time and one person made that statement and everyone else agreed.

So, 6?

Once m4l ships it will be easier to get a true consensus.

Pfft. The M4L community won't miss them. Christ. Already over at the beta forum the amount of cool shit that's being developed is staggering. 8O
Then I read that 7up is being ported over as we speak. Pfft.

And we're only what? A few weeks into this?

The same spirit that's clearly part of the Max community, where folks change people's patches with permission and offer credit and thanks at every turn, is just not likely to change with M4L.
The "M4L Community" will likely build on the "Max community" with something a lot more like the "Reaktor Community". Meaning for the most part the Max community is about development, and the Reaktor community about using things other people have developed.

I do not think it's safe to say "there was always this thing that works this way and it will not change".

People have built commercial applications in Max that they sell only because it's possible to do so without requiring customers to also own Max. I do believe at some point after Maxforlive ships and there is a rich amount of free user-supplied content, we will see people wanting to build devices and sell them and this will become relevant to them.
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4/4
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by 4/4 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:50 pm

based on the suggestion of one shill and five +1s.

and if the reaktor community is all that, why aren't we all hyped up about Reaktor4Live ?
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:57 pm

tempus3r wrote: I do believe at some point after Maxforlive ships and there is a rich amount of free user-supplied content, we will see people wanting to build devices and sell them and this will become relevant to them.
Yes, but as with most open sourced stuff developed for any software platform there will be some enthusiast who then creates a patch/app equally as good or better than the pay version. :idea:
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steff3
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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by steff3 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:22 pm

Well, what was the price of pluggo - you get lots of pluggos and lots of other stuff ... and in contrast to pluggo this will even work (hopefully) ;)

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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by steff3 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:31 pm

Well, Max community is not that - open source - at all, IMHO. First Max/MSP-Jitter is quite expensive compared to PD .... free stuff often comes from University labs and such - but there are also lots of externals you have to pay for.

I think that is a very romantic view of the Max/MSP community (of course there is lots of communication and exchange - but more concerning knowledge and approaches IMHO). Max/MSP is not Reaktor - and personally I think that is great.

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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by steff3 » Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:36 pm

[quote="tempus3r"][quote="3dot..."]I think a 'runtime' should be included in the suite...
the edit button should cost the extra 299...
(either way .I'm getting it...)[/quote]

This is exactly what I would do if I were Ableton.

[/quote]

IMHO this is totally ignoring the efforts that were needed from both sides to integrate those products. Also there are lots of devices - like pluggo stuff - and pluggo-users get a discount - would not be worth giving them a discount if you give it away for free anyways. (and pluggo was not at all about building and editing Max devices ...)

But on the other hand we see that lots of hardware devices make use of M4L and Ableton would leave out a great chance if they would not offer appetizers.

I find it funny that people here complain about others download music from the internet (without paying) - ahhh, how bad is this - and on the other hand say the work and efforts of others is not worth paying for.

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Re: Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:02 pm

Software world is absolutely replete with examples of people offering 'lite' versions. It's not done because it's the humanitarian thing to do.

It's done because it's good business.

Christ, the Abes do it now.

There was a great online interview I read with one of the creators of Avast; the free antivirus app for the PC that's arguably one of the best around. When asked why they offer such an amazing app for free, he basically replied that the free version was an excellent gateway to the pro version and that they've made money hand over fist as a result of that business model. The free version was the best advertising we ever could have hoped for. Or something like that....

Food for thought.
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