Will Live 8.1 have Max4Live runtime?

[jon_moore]

I think a 'runtime' should be included in the suite...
the edit button should cost the extra 299...
(either way .I'm getting it...)

This is exactly what I would do if I were Ableton.

I think eventually they will need to go in this direction. When talking to some max developers about http://www.maxforlive.com one of the things people say is that they would only share their devices/patches if users could NOT edit them.

Some people worry that users will take their devices, change them slightly, and repackage them as their own. If/when we see people starting to charge for their devices this issue will come up often. If there was an ability to share a device that could not be edited, and have any user run that for free, it makes potential business models based on M4L a lot more interesting.

Free runtime with Suite with no edit button ftw!

I think this view misses the point slightly. Max was built on collaboration. The open source ethos is a core part of what has made it a success so far. Already in the library on your site there are modified devices being shared (the PeakMod device being one example). This is a good thing as long as credit is always given and the modifiers have collaboration as their main motivation.

At the same time I believe developers should have the option to bring devices to market that are locked down. If developers are going to bring unique products to market they 1.) deserve to profit from their efforts and 2.) need to have a large enough market of potential customers to make their efforts worthwhile. Many Live users are only interested in accessing new devices not creating their own and $299 is a high price for this (the number of bundled devices are irrelevant if you are only interested in using 1 of those devices).

Max For Live is going to be a success, I'm pretty certain of that. The question remains as to whether it can break out of the coding community and create an viable economic ecosystem of it's own. IMHO the current pricing model severely limits this from happening. Having said all this I'm pretty certain C74 and Ableton have discussed this at length and maybe the don't believe the product is mature enough at the moment to support a runtime as well as the main product.

Whatever the answer, all I do know is that I'll be purchasing the M4L at launch and hopefully utilising it with a spirit of collaboration.

[LoopStationZebra]

Well, Max community is not that - open source - at all, IMHO. First Max/MSP-Jitter is quite expensive compared to PD .... free stuff often comes from University labs and such - but there are also lots of externals you have to pay for.

I think that is a very romantic view of the Max/MSP community (of course there is lots of communication and exchange - but more concerning knowledge and approaches IMHO). Max/MSP is not Reaktor - and personally I think that is great.

best

Max community is completely open source. WTF? Regardless, the majority of patches out there seem to be completely open for anyone to grab, manipulate, and regurgitate. There's more sharing going on than just knowledge and approach. There's a buttload of patch sharing and loads of support from the original patch creators to do so.

*shrug*

What the fuck do I know? I just got into the whole Max world a month ago. But all you have to do is spend a day at monome.org and you'll get a pretty clear picture of what's going on.

[synnack]

Well, Max community is not that - open source - at all, IMHO. First Max/MSP-Jitter is quite expensive compared to PD .... free stuff often comes from University labs and such - but there are also lots of externals you have to pay for.

I think that is a very romantic view of the Max/MSP community (of course there is lots of communication and exchange - but more concerning knowledge and approaches IMHO). Max/MSP is not Reaktor - and personally I think that is great.

best

I agree. I used to visit the Cycling74 forums quite a bit. People DO share in the community and they are very helpful. But what they share is usually parts of larger patches that they need help with. There is a lot of sharing bits, sharing of examples, helping to fix bugs in other peoples patches, and so on. But they don't exactly share their finished results very often.

I mean, google for free synths made in max and you'll find very basic stuff and much of it ancient.

This is the exact opposite of Reaktor.

If you need a good example, let's ask monolake. Should we expect him to share his monodeck controller max patch that he spent so much time on? I seriously cannot imagine him just giving that away. I'm not saying he should either. His choice.

I think a lot of max developers are like this. They will help, and share parts of a whole, but they consider what they've built THEIRS.

Ultimately Ableton has given us a great way to share and edit other peoples devices via frozen .amxd files. So what the "max for live community" turns out to be, and how it differs from the Max, or Reaktor communities is up to us really. Not Ableton.

[stringtapper]

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I don't think it's that reasonable to demand M4L "runtime" for free or 50 bucks. The thing is going to be packed with new live devices (midi and audio effects, cool granular toysm synths). And a huge percentage of the sales will be from people who will never build a thing. If I were ableton, and I wanted to be fair, I would charge exactly what they are charging.

Just my opinion, but I think people may be expecting a bit much for too little these days.

+1

This whining about "I deserve free shit!" is getting old.

Free M4L runtime? I've got a better idea: just pretend you never heard of M4L and go about your business making music the way you already do.

Also, to those who compare Max Runtime with a possible M4L Runtime: realize that M4L will probably be able to work in Demo Mode as it is, which is conceptually identical to Max Runtime (i.e. you can't save anything in Max Runtime either). A M4L Runtime would be more than that because you could save your work in Live. The reason Max Runtime exists is so that a patch can be performed by someone who doesn't have Max installed or has different specs than the creator of the patch. Running Live in demo mode with M4L running as well would be exactly the same functionality (a performance-oriented functionality).

I dunno, I don;t think it's exactly the same in demo mode really, there already is a Max runtime, it's not like this request is unfounded

If you used the Max runtime to use a max created plug-in, you'd still be able to save the plug-in state in Live, even if you couldn't make changes to the plug-in itself

I mean who would want to use any of the devices provided within M4L without saving the state of the parameters? What if you used several of those Pluggos in a Live set?

not really the same thing

I think you're conflating Max Runtime and plugins made in Max (which can't even be done in Max 5). With Max 4 you could make a pluggo to run inside Live and yes you could save the plugin state. With Max 5 (and now we know it was because of M4L) you can't make pluggos anymore. Max 5 Runtime will run patches and standalones, but they're not going to run inside Live.

[LoopStationZebra]

I agree. I used to visit the Cycling74 forums quite a bit. People DO share in the community and they are very helpful. But what they share is usually parts of larger patches that they need help with. There is a lot of sharing bits, sharing of examples, helping to fix bugs in other peoples patches, and so on. But they don't exactly share their finished results very often.

I mean, google for free synths made in max and you'll find very basic stuff and much of it ancient.

This is the exact opposite of Reaktor.

If you need a good example, let's ask monolake. Should we expect him to share his monodeck controller max patch that he spent so much time on? I seriously cannot imagine him just giving that away. I'm not saying he should either. His choice.

I think a lot of max developers are like this. They will help, and share parts of a whole, but they consider what they've built THEIRS.

Ultimately Ableton has given us a great way to share and edit other peoples devices via frozen .amxd files. So what the "max for live community" turns out to be, and how it differs from the Max, or Reaktor communities is up to us really. Not Ableton.

So basically $300, a lot of hype, and chances are all the good shit will be kept by the creators themselves and never shared?

FFS I hope not.

But, if that's the case and I've completely misinterpreted the new M4L and Max world, then all the more reason for a runtime version. Don't remotely have the time to create my own patches. I've no problem plunking down the cash for M4L, but if all that will be available is 10 new reverb effects, a couple of sample buffer manglers, and a handful of step sequencers than fuck it.

I think I'll be waiting on the M4L purchase to see how this pans out.

*Loop's excitement over M4L dies a fast death* lol.

[synnack]

I agree. I used to visit the Cycling74 forums quite a bit. People DO share in the community and they are very helpful. But what they share is usually parts of larger patches that they need help with. There is a lot of sharing bits, sharing of examples, helping to fix bugs in other peoples patches, and so on. But they don't exactly share their finished results very often.

I mean, google for free synths made in max and you'll find very basic stuff and much of it ancient.

This is the exact opposite of Reaktor.

If you need a good example, let's ask monolake. Should we expect him to share his monodeck controller max patch that he spent so much time on? I seriously cannot imagine him just giving that away. I'm not saying he should either. His choice.

I think a lot of max developers are like this. They will help, and share parts of a whole, but they consider what they've built THEIRS.

Ultimately Ableton has given us a great way to share and edit other peoples devices via frozen .amxd files. So what the "max for live community" turns out to be, and how it differs from the Max, or Reaktor communities is up to us really. Not Ableton.

So basically $300, a lot of hype, and chances are all the good shit will be kept by the creators themselves and never shared?

FFS I hope not.

But, if that's the case and I've completely misinterpreted the new M4L and Max world, then all the more reason for a runtime version. Don't remotely have the time to create my own patches. I've no problem plunking down the cash for M4L, but if all that will be available is 10 new reverb effects, a couple of sample buffer manglers, and a handful of step sequencers than fuck it.

I think I'll be waiting on the M4L purchase to see how this pans out.

*Loop's excitement over M4L dies a fast death* lol.

Dude, there not only will be tons of cool shit shared, there already is! I have used cool sequencers people have posted on tracks already.

For people interested in making their own devices, 300 dollars is fucking CHEAP. For those wanting to just use other peoples devices, 300 is a bit much. That's pretty much the crux of all of these threads about a runtime. I am optimistic there will be tons of cool content, even for those who don't want to roll their own. So much so I made an entire web site for it. (yada yada maxforlive.com yet again yada yada).

My last statement was meant to say forget about whatever the "Max community" was, the new M4L community is really only in its infancy. It's up to us to build it. And we will!

[Tone Deft]

there's already a buttload of nice free content that comes with max4Live. it's usable and it's editable to learn from.

still working on a Launch Pad step sequencer, it will be shared (just posted what I have in the beta forum.) it would be great to see it expanded upon I also want the basics of how to use max with an LP to be known so others don't have to start from scratch like I did.

[LoopStationZebra]

*Loop digs out his credit card again*
lol

[4/4]

have fun ironing out those bugs, fellas.

I'm lookin forward to jumping on board when it's cheaper than what you guys paid for it, and more stable

[Tone Deft]

empty sour grapes...

it hasn't crashed yet and I've had it open since Monday night. you're blaming bugs in a software program you've never even used before, great argument.

$300? meh. I'd feel like an ass if I was going to work five days a week and not spending the money. besides, it's FREE right now. if you're not going to check it out while it's free why would you bother with an opinion on this or not? like stringtapper wrote, just go on your merry way like you never heard about it. haters are boring, this is fun stuff.

[3dot...]

I think a 'runtime' should be included in the suite...
the edit button should cost the extra 299...
(either way .I'm getting it...)

This is exactly what I would do if I were Ableton.

IMHO this is totally ignoring the efforts that were needed from both sides to integrate those products. Also there are lots of devices - like pluggo stuff - and pluggo-users get a discount - would not be worth giving them a discount if you give it away for free anyways. (and pluggo was not at all about building and editing Max devices ...)

But on the other hand we see that lots of hardware devices make use of M4L and Ableton would leave out a great chance if they would not offer appetizers.

I find it funny that people here complain about others download music from the internet (without paying) - ahhh, how bad is this - and on the other hand say the work and efforts of others is not worth paying for.

best

nobody said it's not worth it...
only that if this is now a part of live... it 'should'(logically)...be a part of the suite
(which is supposed to be the complete version of live)

[4/4]

Tone, ableton never crashes on you. and you've always got it open for days on end. You ROCK!

But seriously, the comment was tongue-in-cheek - hence the smiley with his tongue sticking out like a cheeky monkey.

I don't early-adopt Ableton products anymore, for stability & pricing reasons. I don't see how M4L is going to be an exception after years of the same pattern. You early-adopters will be burned by the flaming shit-stick, I guaran-fuckin-tee it. And a better price will be offered about a year down the road, when it's more stable. I'm geekish, but not uber geekish that I derive pleasure out of paying to be a part of a beta-testing community. Let's not fight, we're in this together =)

[3dot...]

I don't mind about the pluggos and patches... really
they could include them or not...(keep selling the pluggos pack could be another viable alternative)
I know of at least a couple of forum users that were in the process of porting 'pluggos' to m4l...
and were about to share them...
that being said...I WOULD NEVER PAY FOR A 'runtime' ...and am not interested in the 'included content'/pluggos...
so 300$ for the premise of a serious development environment integrated with Live makes more sense in that matter..
and I WILL BUY IT even if there was an included runtime...which there is (but it will be 'blocked')
I would've loved to make devices so other 'non-m4l club members' could use and enjoy...

[3dot...]

empty sour grapes...

it hasn't crashed yet and I've had it open since Monday night. you're blaming bugs in a software program you've never even used before, great argument.

$300? meh. I'd feel like an ass if I was going to work five days a week and not spending the money. besides, it's FREE right now. if you're not going to check it out while it's free why would you bother with an opinion on this or not? like stringtapper wrote, just go on your merry way like you never heard about it. haters are boring, this is fun stuff.

glad it hasn't crashed on you yet... but m4l does not make live any more stable... on the contrary...
it introduces serious lags and long waiting times...which are counter-productive...and CRASHES...
I dunno what kindof patches you've made...so I don't know how you've managed to not crash it in almost a week..
also glad to hear 300$ is no sweat for you...
for real...

[stringtapper]

But seriously, the comment was tongue-in-cheek - hence the smiley with his tongue sticking out like a cheeky monkey.

I don't early-adopt Ableton products anymore, for stability & pricing reasons. I don't see how M4L is going to be an exception after years of the same pattern. You early-adopters will be burned by the flaming shit-stick, I guaran-fuckin-tee it. And a better price will be offered about a year down the road, when it's more stable. I'm geekish, but not uber geekish that I derive pleasure out of paying to be a part of a beta-testing community. Let's not fight, we're in this together =)

Don't see how I could possibly get burned. I'm already using M4L in its beta stage. At this point I'm paying to have a version that doesn't expire and has complete documentation.

And since I'm already using it, it will be worth it to me to pay the measly $30 or whatever coupon you might get in a few months just so I can keep using it. If they lower the price by $100 in one year, then that $100 was also worth it for me to be able to keep using it.