Reaktor 5 or max4live

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Tone Deft
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by Tone Deft » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:59 pm

arachnaut wrote:
arachnaut wrote:...
Look over Tone Deft quadrillion posts of rants and hyperbole and compare it to my simple, helpful posts. Make your own judgments. But don't be deceived by the adolescent knee-jerk response and the game of quantity over quality.
...
I am guilty.

This is an 'ad hominem' attack and it says nothing about the good posts Tone Deft has made.

I apologize, sincerely, to Tone Deft.
no worries man, I need the smack laid down from time to time. I've read enough of your posts to know you have a mellow nature. we're fan boys. I do post too much and I do go off my rocker from time to time. I swear today it was Red Bull on an empty stomach, no excuse but I was flying!

guilty as charged but I love this audio stuff!! at least we're not ranting about politics or which country is the best.
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

ze2be
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:02 am

Tone Deft wrote:at least we're not ranting about politics or which country is the best.
:lol: god yeah, its a lot better now actually!
? ? ? ? ?

arachnaut
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by arachnaut » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:37 am

If you believe that Reaktor cannot send MIDI data as (for example) an LFO modulator to another Live device, you don't understand the possibilities.

Reaktor treats MIDI, automation control, and audio as streams of floating point (or integer) numbers, much like Unix byte streams.

I frequently use Reaktor as a MIDI controller of Live devices (and VST's) - and have for years.

Like Max, I can program the data sent to the device, but only through MIDI or audio channels.

The Reaktor library has lots (thousands) of programmable knobs, X/Y matrices, sequencers, matrices and devices.

It is very different from Max for Live. It is a visual GUI. It is a visual patch panel. It has a huge library of instruments and effects. It isn't a programming language with access to Live's API. You have to fudge things to get a similar effect, if you want to manipulate clips and stuff.

Both require an extensive amount of study.

I use it mainly as a sound manipulator. I have no external devices other than a keyboard.

ze2be
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by ze2be » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:52 am

arachnaut wrote:If you believe that Reaktor cannot send MIDI data as (for example) an LFO modulator to another Live device, you don't understand the possibilities.

Reaktor treats MIDI, automation control, and audio as streams of floating point (or integer) numbers, much like Unix byte streams.

I frequently use Reaktor as a MIDI controller of Live devices (and VST's) - and have for years.

Like Max, I can program the data sent to the device, but only through MIDI or audio channels.

The Reaktor library has lots (thousands) of programmable knobs, X/Y matrices, sequencers, matrices and devices.

It is very different from Max for Live. It is a visual GUI. It is a visual patch panel. It has a huge library of instruments and effects. It isn't a programming language with access to Live's API. You have to fudge things to get a similar effect, if you want to manipulate clips and stuff.

Both require an extensive amount of study.

I use it mainly as a sound manipulator. I have no external devices other than a keyboard.
Yes, but you cant assign Reaktor to Lives parameters, can you? I dont know, ive only used Reaktor Session.

What you might want to do is building modular systems of any combination of 3rd party vsts, Live instruments, effects, and its mixer, racks, macros, etc.

edit:
I frequently use Reaktor as a MIDI controller of Live devices (and VST's) - and have for years.
Sorry, im falling a sleep here. Its late and im going to work early tomorrow!

good night. :)
? ? ? ? ?

arachnaut
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by arachnaut » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:24 am

ze2be wrote: Yes, but you cant assign Reaktor to Lives parameters, can you? I dont know, ive only used Reaktor Session.
Isn't that what I just wrote?

Session is not Reaktor, just as Pluggo is not Max.

Just to be perfectly clear, here is how easy it is to make an LFO for a Live device:

Image

I assigned the LFO to the Foot Controller MIDI CC.

julienb
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by julienb » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:50 am

I guess the answer is different for each person.
do you feel more comfortable with max/msp/jitter? with reaktor?
I'm in the first case, for very history/different reasons.
So I use max.

I guess it could be used w/ reaktor too.
I don't know if reaktor is as open as max to the world (serial communication, network communication, etc)
I guess.

Tone Deft
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by Tone Deft » Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:23 am

arachnaut wrote:
ze2be wrote: Yes, but you cant assign Reaktor to Lives parameters, can you? I dont know, ive only used Reaktor Session.
Isn't that what I just wrote?

Session is not Reaktor, just as Pluggo is not Max.

Just to be perfectly clear, here is how easy it is to make an LFO for a Live device:

I assigned the LFO to the Foot Controller MIDI CC.
OK, can you show people how it's done with max4Live?
oddstep wrote:I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"

arachnaut
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by arachnaut » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:49 am

I don't have Max 4 Live, but when I was demoing it there were quite a few MIDI patches that did stuff like this and it looked quite simple to do. I did look at each of those patches carefully at that time, but I've already forgotten most of the details. I did not mean to imply that this is hard to do - it just seemed that some folk thought you could not do stuff like that in Reaktor.

Why doesn't someone post a similar thing for Max4Live so people can compare some simple structures?

I don't know why we feel like this is a contest between two programs. They are very different. It is something like if I say I like Absynth better than Zebra, or some such thing. It's just an opinion for crying out loud, no need to get personal. People can try demos of each, but there isn't a lot to demo yet in Max 4 Live, at least not in the beta version. The demos I played with did not impress me as much as the demos that come with Reaktor.

Since Max is a programming language and it's extensible, it's a heaven for programmers and is open-ended. Reaktor is not that at all and it probably never will be.

We're not talking about CSound in these forums - it IS a programming language, but still very different from Max - why is Reaktor the tool to compare against? It does run on just about every platform - I used it on the Atari ST.

On the other hand, you can run Reaktor standalone and it can function exactly like an external controller - it can send MIDI to Live that can be MIDI mapped just like one's external controllers. From within Live, neither Reaktor VST nor Max 4 Live can send out midi data without resorting to back door mechanism. For those who like MIDI Learn, this may be a big deal.

But these sorts of things may not matter at all to people. People who know me and have heard my music or my Live racks or Reaktor ensembles know the type of things I like and that I am not a DJ, into beats, or into anything like music in the usual sense.

Knowing that, they can form an opinion of my posts and see my preferences. If it matches their opinions and preferences they may make similar choices.

I know in Max I could probably write software patches which compose musical sounds triggered from whatever types of rules I may wish to make.

Probably I could do the same in Reaktor.

I don't think it would be easy to do in either program.

I worked on things in Reaktor very heavily for over a year and I still only know a small fraction of what it can do. Naturally, I'd do whatever I could in Reaktor rather than trying to learn Max.

There is no need to think Reaktor OR max4live as the thread title suggests, why not make it Reaktor AND Max 4 Live, especially with Reaktor at $99 right now - it's a steal.

There are lots of things in Reaktor that are quite tricky or obscure or frustrating, even after long time study.

I imagine there's a bit of that in Max, too.

Someone once posted something in the Reaktor forums about the number of individual creators that were in the user library. I don't recall the exact number but it was very small. Probably the same thing is true in Max.

If that is true, users will mostly experience Max 4 Live as just another bunch of presets, and maybe they will do some simple tweaks here and there.

If I were to be brutally honest, I would not recommend Reaktor to anyone as a tool, only as a source of lots of musical toys, because I know how frustrating it is to work in that tool.

One danger I can see is that people may hard-code Max patches to work just for them and make it hard for others to extend; whereas if one wrote more generally (or perhaps more correctly) others will benefit, too. Something like when Javascript came out and people did not program using the Javascript object model.

Anyway, we live in such exciting times, don't we? and we have so much to be thankful for.
Last edited by arachnaut on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Eraldo Bernocchi
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by Eraldo Bernocchi » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:52 am

Reaktor. Nothing compares

julienb
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by julienb » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:09 am

these are just tools.
making music is more complex.
whatever the tool...

steff3
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by steff3 » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:14 am

[quote="boseeb"]Now NI Reaktor 5 is 99 euro, should I buy this or max4live?[/quote]

Well, if you are an engineer or Reaktor freak, get reaktor ... if you are a computer scientist or Max freak, get M4L ... Or - if you want to use ready-made stuff from the reaktor library, get reaktor, if you want to build your own stuff for use in Live, get M4L ...

best

julienb
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by julienb » Sat Nov 28, 2009 10:24 am

steff3 wrote:
boseeb wrote:Now NI Reaktor 5 is 99 euro, should I buy this or max4live?
Well, if you are an engineer or Reaktor freak, get reaktor ... if you are a computer scientist or Max freak, get M4L ... Or - if you want to use ready-made stuff from the reaktor library, get reaktor, if you want to build your own stuff for use in Live, get M4L ...

best
ahah nice analysis.

I would like to add: if you want to make music, make music :)

boseeb
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by boseeb » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:15 pm

Thanks for all the comments.

I'm not a Reaktor nor a MAX freak. I'm probably not going to build a lot of stuff from scratch. I just try to find out which of both programs are the easiest to start with without having to go through a very steep learning curve. :roll:

JAMM
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by JAMM » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:13 pm

wow, reaktor seems like a greeeeat deal!!! Thousends of user plug-ins....step sequencers and synths. Also cheaper and vst so no problems interacting with ableton. Also easer to share your newmade plugins with the rest of the world. So think of buying reaktor.

Remember....Until 30 november!


pffff there are a lot of amazing deals going on. also bought the 50% discount camel audio alchemy, chameleon 5000.

julienb
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Re: Reaktor 5 or max4live

Post by julienb » Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:36 pm

JAMM wrote:vst so no problems interacting with ableton..
wow.
I dropped all my VSTi... I needed reliability, and it didn't fit with that for me.

some people would answer "max for live isn't *only from ableton and isn't more reliable than VSTi"
I'd answer: ok, but max for live is more from ableton than any VSTi

but my words could sound like shit... :lol:

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