What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

[SubFunk]

Question: can M4L achieve tempo nudge per track?

if, i am sold, even i think it's way to expensive.

[Green Lemon]

What on earth is not to like?

the price.

seriously.

your right. this hobby is CHEAP! nothing else I use has cost more than 50 bucks.

and M4L is an obligated purchase. Live 8.2 will not even play a WAV file without it. talk about built in obsolescence.

[henke]

@Henke
so whats the future of ableton live if you don,t buy MFL? Or is MFL the future?

i get the idea that ableton now is concentrating on MFL.
i see MFL stuff that i wanted to see in live 9.

Not sure if I understand you. Here is how we see it: We believe that with M4L we are able to offer a highly interesting way of combining features of two very different applications with the goal to provide users with functionality that they could not achive with anything else or only with a lot of effort. MAX allows you to build the most extreme and personalized audio / video / data managing applications out there without the need to learn C++ or any other lower level programing language. However MAX is not the ideal tool for timeline based operations or general sequencing. Live on the other side has such a diverse user base, that fulfilling the desires of every single user is an impossible task. MAX is a good way to get Live to do specific things that only appeal to a few users but are highly important to them. This is why we think the combination of those two applications and our combined efforts to make them talk with each other is highly valuable.

But, MAX (and MAX for Live) is not the answer to every problem or wish out there. This is important to understand for those who are in the hopes that M4L will do everything they ever wanted to do. There are limits. Some of them can be overcome by further working on MAX itself, by providing more ties between Live and MAX via an extended API, etc... etc... But there are also limits that are rooted in the fact that MAX and Live are two seperate applications.

We (Ableton) have no intention to use M4L as an excuse for not taking feature requests serious or to stop working on ideas of how to improve Live. The existence of M4L makes it easier for us to help those of you who want to do things with Live that we will not implement in the near future or ever, because they are 'too special' in some way. But since M4L is not the solution for improvements in audio / midi editing or a lot of other Live specific issues, we certainly will not stop working on Live itself, completely independent from the development of M4L.

I hope this makes a few things more clear.

Cheers, Robert

[JAMM]

Robert, thanks to take the time to reply.

I trust that we can welcom new cool features and effects in the future.

Cheers, JAMM

[SubFunk]

Question: can M4L achieve tempo nudge per track?

anyone?

[davepermen]

from my minimal experience, i think not. but it can jump in the track by beats, which i implemented, so i have the glorious beatjump from traktor now implemented in live. i'm unsure if the function i call actually takes floatingpoint values, or only integers. if it takes floatingpoint values, one could create a nudge-function with it.

or one could set up (at least for mixing mostly two tracks) two together-communicating max4live audioeffects. and they delay against each other to nudge relative to each other. that would be another way.

but a fully flexible nudge/scratch option like in traktor, i think not (but then again, that should not be needed as warping allows much more flexibility.) but tiny renudging could be interesting. i'll check out when i have time, i promise.

[SubFunk]

from my minimal experience, i think not. but it can jump in the track by beats, which i implemented, so i have the glorious beatjump from traktor now implemented in live. i'm unsure if the function i call actually takes floatingpoint values, or only integers. if it takes floatingpoint values, one could create a nudge-function with it.

or one could set up (at least for mixing mostly two tracks) two together-communicating max4live audioeffects. and they delay against each other to nudge relative to each other. that would be another way.

but a fully flexible nudge/scratch option like in traktor, i think not (but then again, that should not be needed as warping allows much more flexibility.) but tiny renudging could be interesting. i'll check out when i have time, i promise.

thanks a lot, i am not interested in scratching or anything, just in a simple (very subtle would be already enough) tempo nudge per track possibility. that would make me going for M4L immediately.

anyone else input on that matter?

thanks!

[Tone Deft]

from my minimal experience, i think not. but it can jump in the track by beats, which i implemented, so i have the glorious beatjump from traktor now implemented in live. i'm unsure if the function i call actually takes floatingpoint values, or only integers. if it takes floatingpoint values, one could create a nudge-function with it.

or one could set up (at least for mixing mostly two tracks) two together-communicating max4live audioeffects. and they delay against each other to nudge relative to each other. that would be another way.

but a fully flexible nudge/scratch option like in traktor, i think not (but then again, that should not be needed as warping allows much more flexibility.) but tiny renudging could be interesting. i'll check out when i have time, i promise.

given that the nudge buttons are part of the GUI do you think they'd be reachable with the Live API? I don't know either way but I wouldn't write it off without knowing for sure.

[davepermen]

the api has the move_playing_pos function on the clip, which is relative, and allows beat jumping like the nudge buttons on the clip.

i'm just testing, the function takes floating point values. i call move_playing_pos with 0.125 and can nudge 8 times to get it "in the beat" again of the metronome.

so next plan is to go even lower, and then make it smooth continuously nudging while holding the button, maybe even increase the steps. similar to how traktor does it.

so it sure does work. but i'm unsure if i actually like it, as i like to have everything in beat. stuff like beat repeat will rely on that..

[davepermen]

from my minimal experience, i think not. but it can jump in the track by beats, which i implemented, so i have the glorious beatjump from traktor now implemented in live. i'm unsure if the function i call actually takes floatingpoint values, or only integers. if it takes floatingpoint values, one could create a nudge-function with it.

or one could set up (at least for mixing mostly two tracks) two together-communicating max4live audioeffects. and they delay against each other to nudge relative to each other. that would be another way.

but a fully flexible nudge/scratch option like in traktor, i think not (but then again, that should not be needed as warping allows much more flexibility.) but tiny renudging could be interesting. i'll check out when i have time, i promise.

thanks a lot, i am not interested in scratching or anything, just in a simple (very subtle would be already enough) tempo nudge per track possibility. that would make me going for M4L immediately.

anyone else input on that matter?

thanks!

you can get the demo somehow? if so, try this patch:

Code: Select all

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
1156.3oc6ZksaaiCE8YWf9OHHzGSCDWjr8fhBLyuQPfgrEiMmQhTPj1iyTz9
sWJpEq3HYSKMQL.JOTSWRZxCO2Ed4A4Ge9SybWyORDtN+gyCNyl8CUOyz8k2
yrpNl4lDdbSbnPOQWF4e4q+a26JGSRNJ08mw2KINowgOSYaWIh4xUTVD4X8L
Y6STSIlH0qCrp6h9jOmRJvgq6cp+47X03OwYRA8+ziB7t2qp+zP4lc4aUFYi
r3mBf9pwcfdf7F.bgtQ84oUSABJqBCfpdoQ5if5b8UrmayclEln2Y2+LiFF6
7W73HW8v+7yeJuU0b2fotX5Ax8pQxOHsyVftYqgvTff44M9KuBQAain.VhnT
GmccPSnK6T0aGKX.RyPHOMcA5ieE7sitRHBQ3Vxq4qsDo4QjuU9XEjF.TDMF
baNYnw2IS5r1QbyYsVGx1N3LWKw4ehf26e69WXK3ekGJ5H2QEqhHGnaHNaBY
bFcSX7pzvLBajSmE.0tXyw8wSye5jNq5dxfk8OcVfcBLisSfIxqHWleuBMm+
dLzzYSLMUeqfv4K.8+abiVgHcbJzedeBWW71wo5vRMQVsEGByp2g5Qe.930b
FqsFe6atlVuaZFQnLOgRJm0fzz2dp+.6UTjaS9Jei3L8V88u6ZB220J0b6eg
wuc2bkujhXjjrUDV35XRmw.KqQUBOROsZWDQ3ARzpPoLitV8FhSeSTZkpLS4
Fh38D9SU8WOPSfjnLlZXT6Dd1vT8Ayq8gqLLv1FjxnRk+UiyZqqgXGOS9ZGF
21WxCTA8RqlhupNQv4sC5PFiW5wTusstawb11K5I+pc9hjULk8O4Km3hf+L6
8YG+m3cCWdVDIqye6dk0Pz8OVjRHQwzjtMSRRZ2Hmnb3KiPUdcf7nTUK7Tj5
Km8wTNKufmtc7zvU9bYLhW4LJSPc5K+udKfJcerSB+.YU0y.R4BmuBBF2T8H
b4SA5Spd+ozKxQKJnHebOdRtuEdR96.YePKVNXYePKlBNYkL0Pj8AMgj8wGN
enx9.WN0j8oxGaHx9.WLMj8ojqFfrOv4SXYeJougH6CLX5jNq5dxAH6CX4zP
1mRpZPx9.79P1m1b+FhrOuCT8AXtpOMjhomp9TPRCW1mZtejk8Af9P1m2ux9
.9P1mojrOilpOU2dVo5SeJLKXB8d7gI5y3STow62pXfecyEkInpzPw4wTkeq
WrllrPEEwh5AiAsCiQYVkvv8lutYEeJVaU7D6U+wkoQW9.mwhB99rMUm5xJ8
bZ.xHhPRY0km7vomizbV6nQQD1KpxHgFkxoLYIPbdraaqwX67ssCv4YGvkus
fqAN+WNoQBaAlva91i1tJ1BrC1LwhBshEEXBqAsCqgLBa1wjBMJTHWcOa.t4
FAtE1CbWOZvN2L.M5ZKDvNfaowfa7SjfLJSBxN9bHiLq1AaXit3BaIvYjUEa
mJkvPi.mchGvHiAmEXNrI4fwP6AtqybH6.Nei.G1NfynKHv1o.crQEk3amTI
9FkD1GXOlCXD3rPdNiJDFamBgwFcuOd3OgHuCUyuAbejqzB
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

and change the -16 and 16 to some low floatingpoint value (in my case 0.125 right now). allows some nudging.

but as i'm on the laptop speaker, i can't really hear if i'm not mixing well so i have to try with lower values in some more clublike environment. but the sofa is so relaxing right now, i can't get up to test if one could really adjust well enough for mixing (mainly the typical kicks that eat each other would be nice to fix with a tiny nudge)

[SubFunk]

the api has the move_playing_pos function on the clip, which is relative, and allows beat jumping like the nudge buttons on the clip.

i'm just testing, the function takes floating point values. i call move_playing_pos with 0.125 and can nudge 8 times to get it "in the beat" again of the metronome.

so next plan is to go even lower, and then make it smooth continuously nudging while holding the button, maybe even increase the steps. similar to how traktor does it.

so it sure does work. but i'm unsure if i actually like it, as i like to have everything in beat. stuff like beat repeat will rely on that..

thanks!

[Tone Deft]

the api has the move_playing_pos function on the clip, which is relative, and allows beat jumping like the nudge buttons on the clip.

is that to say that there isn't an API call involving nudge? I don't know the API at all nor am I comfortable probing what its features. just curious, thanks, you've been a lot of help with the API.

[davepermen]

the api does not map to the live gui at all. so no direct mapping of the nudge buttons no. but the beatjump routine i've implemented (pic below, it's really primitive) can do tiny jumps, so it can implement nudging (sort of the reverse of what the nudge buttons actually do, as they can do beatjumping).

we're talking about clip-features here. global nudging is available (the buttons on the top left of live). but per clip relative nudging isn't per se. but beatjump can fix that.

my fancy beatjumper

[Tone Deft]

wow, you make it look so easy. searching for 'nudge' in the Live Object Model:

http://cycling74.com/docs/max5/refpages ... model.html

it looks like you can only observe the state of the nudge buttons. I need to get used to reading that page. much to learn.

[davepermen]

those are the global nudges. so if you have two lives, you can nudge one against the other laptop. or against a vinyl deck, or a cdj. or against traktor.

but there are no clip nudges, there never where. so you can't correct any not exact warping of two tracks that, thus, don't fit perfectly. a.k.a dj with live (beatmatching).

but you can emulate it with the proposed solutions from me (i personally like the relative delay solution best hehe but it would mean much work so i implement the nudging by doing <1 beatjumps.