What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
SubFunk
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by SubFunk » Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:35 pm

Question: can M4L achieve tempo nudge per track?

if, i am sold, even i think it's way to expensive.
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Green Lemon
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by Green Lemon » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:50 am

hurlingdervish wrote:
Green Lemon wrote: What on earth is not to like?
the price.

seriously.

your right. this hobby is CHEAP! nothing else I use has cost more than 50 bucks.

and M4L is an obligated purchase. Live 8.2 will not even play a WAV file without it. talk about built in obsolescence.
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henke
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by henke » Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:27 pm

JAMM wrote:@Henke
so whats the future of ableton live if you don,t buy MFL? Or is MFL the future?

i get the idea that ableton now is concentrating on MFL.
i see MFL stuff that i wanted to see in live 9.
Not sure if I understand you. Here is how we see it: We believe that with M4L we are able to offer a highly interesting way of combining features of two very different applications with the goal to provide users with functionality that they could not achive with anything else or only with a lot of effort. MAX allows you to build the most extreme and personalized audio / video / data managing applications out there without the need to learn C++ or any other lower level programing language. However MAX is not the ideal tool for timeline based operations or general sequencing. Live on the other side has such a diverse user base, that fulfilling the desires of every single user is an impossible task. MAX is a good way to get Live to do specific things that only appeal to a few users but are highly important to them. This is why we think the combination of those two applications and our combined efforts to make them talk with each other is highly valuable.

But, MAX (and MAX for Live) is not the answer to every problem or wish out there. This is important to understand for those who are in the hopes that M4L will do everything they ever wanted to do. There are limits. Some of them can be overcome by further working on MAX itself, by providing more ties between Live and MAX via an extended API, etc... etc... But there are also limits that are rooted in the fact that MAX and Live are two seperate applications.

We (Ableton) have no intention to use M4L as an excuse for not taking feature requests serious or to stop working on ideas of how to improve Live. The existence of M4L makes it easier for us to help those of you who want to do things with Live that we will not implement in the near future or ever, because they are 'too special' in some way. But since M4L is not the solution for improvements in audio / midi editing or a lot of other Live specific issues, we certainly will not stop working on Live itself, completely independent from the development of M4L.

I hope this makes a few things more clear.

Cheers, Robert

JAMM
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by JAMM » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:16 pm

Robert, thanks to take the time to reply.

I trust that we can welcom new cool features and effects in the future.

Cheers, JAMM

SubFunk
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by SubFunk » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:22 pm

SubFunk wrote:Question: can M4L achieve tempo nudge per track?
anyone?
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davepermen
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by davepermen » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:35 pm

from my minimal experience, i think not. but it can jump in the track by beats, which i implemented, so i have the glorious beatjump from traktor now implemented in live. i'm unsure if the function i call actually takes floatingpoint values, or only integers. if it takes floatingpoint values, one could create a nudge-function with it.

or one could set up (at least for mixing mostly two tracks) two together-communicating max4live audioeffects. and they delay against each other to nudge relative to each other. that would be another way.

but a fully flexible nudge/scratch option like in traktor, i think not (but then again, that should not be needed as warping allows much more flexibility.) but tiny renudging could be interesting. i'll check out when i have time, i promise.
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SubFunk
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by SubFunk » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:42 pm

davepermen wrote:from my minimal experience, i think not. but it can jump in the track by beats, which i implemented, so i have the glorious beatjump from traktor now implemented in live. i'm unsure if the function i call actually takes floatingpoint values, or only integers. if it takes floatingpoint values, one could create a nudge-function with it.

or one could set up (at least for mixing mostly two tracks) two together-communicating max4live audioeffects. and they delay against each other to nudge relative to each other. that would be another way.

but a fully flexible nudge/scratch option like in traktor, i think not (but then again, that should not be needed as warping allows much more flexibility.) but tiny renudging could be interesting. i'll check out when i have time, i promise.
thanks a lot, i am not interested in scratching or anything, just in a simple (very subtle would be already enough) tempo nudge per track possibility. that would make me going for M4L immediately.

anyone else input on that matter?

thanks!
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Tone Deft
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:47 pm

davepermen wrote:from my minimal experience, i think not. but it can jump in the track by beats, which i implemented, so i have the glorious beatjump from traktor now implemented in live. i'm unsure if the function i call actually takes floatingpoint values, or only integers. if it takes floatingpoint values, one could create a nudge-function with it.

or one could set up (at least for mixing mostly two tracks) two together-communicating max4live audioeffects. and they delay against each other to nudge relative to each other. that would be another way.

but a fully flexible nudge/scratch option like in traktor, i think not (but then again, that should not be needed as warping allows much more flexibility.) but tiny renudging could be interesting. i'll check out when i have time, i promise.
given that the nudge buttons are part of the GUI do you think they'd be reachable with the Live API? I don't know either way but I wouldn't write it off without knowing for sure.
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davepermen
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by davepermen » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:53 pm

the api has the move_playing_pos function on the clip, which is relative, and allows beat jumping like the nudge buttons on the clip.

i'm just testing, the function takes floating point values. i call move_playing_pos with 0.125 and can nudge 8 times to get it "in the beat" again of the metronome.

so next plan is to go even lower, and then make it smooth continuously nudging while holding the button, maybe even increase the steps. similar to how traktor does it.

so it sure does work. but i'm unsure if i actually like it, as i like to have everything in beat. stuff like beat repeat will rely on that.. :)
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.

davepermen
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by davepermen » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:56 pm

SubFunk wrote:
davepermen wrote:from my minimal experience, i think not. but it can jump in the track by beats, which i implemented, so i have the glorious beatjump from traktor now implemented in live. i'm unsure if the function i call actually takes floatingpoint values, or only integers. if it takes floatingpoint values, one could create a nudge-function with it.

or one could set up (at least for mixing mostly two tracks) two together-communicating max4live audioeffects. and they delay against each other to nudge relative to each other. that would be another way.

but a fully flexible nudge/scratch option like in traktor, i think not (but then again, that should not be needed as warping allows much more flexibility.) but tiny renudging could be interesting. i'll check out when i have time, i promise.
thanks a lot, i am not interested in scratching or anything, just in a simple (very subtle would be already enough) tempo nudge per track possibility. that would make me going for M4L immediately.

anyone else input on that matter?

thanks!

you can get the demo somehow? if so, try this patch:

Code: Select all

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
1156.3oc6ZksaaiCE8YWf9OHHzGSCDWjr8fhBLyuQPfgrEiMmQhTPj1iyTz9
sWJpEq3HYSKMQL.JOTSWRZxCO2Ed4A4Ge9SybWyORDtN+gyCNyl8CUOyz8k2
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9FkD1GXOlCXD3rPdNiJDFamBgwFcuOd3OgHuCUyuAbejqzB
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>
and change the -16 and 16 to some low floatingpoint value (in my case 0.125 right now). allows some nudging.

but as i'm on the laptop speaker, i can't really hear if i'm not mixing well so i have to try with lower values in some more clublike environment. but the sofa is so relaxing right now, i can't get up to test if one could really adjust well enough for mixing (mainly the typical kicks that eat each other would be nice to fix with a tiny nudge)
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SubFunk
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by SubFunk » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:56 pm

davepermen wrote:the api has the move_playing_pos function on the clip, which is relative, and allows beat jumping like the nudge buttons on the clip.

i'm just testing, the function takes floating point values. i call move_playing_pos with 0.125 and can nudge 8 times to get it "in the beat" again of the metronome.

so next plan is to go even lower, and then make it smooth continuously nudging while holding the button, maybe even increase the steps. similar to how traktor does it.

so it sure does work. but i'm unsure if i actually like it, as i like to have everything in beat. stuff like beat repeat will rely on that.. :)
thanks!
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Tone Deft
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:02 pm

davepermen wrote:the api has the move_playing_pos function on the clip, which is relative, and allows beat jumping like the nudge buttons on the clip.
is that to say that there isn't an API call involving nudge? I don't know the API at all nor am I comfortable probing what its features. just curious, thanks, you've been a lot of help with the API.
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davepermen
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by davepermen » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:06 pm

the api does not map to the live gui at all. so no direct mapping of the nudge buttons no. but the beatjump routine i've implemented (pic below, it's really primitive) can do tiny jumps, so it can implement nudging (sort of the reverse of what the nudge buttons actually do, as they can do beatjumping).

we're talking about clip-features here. global nudging is available (the buttons on the top left of live). but per clip relative nudging isn't per se. but beatjump can fix that.

my fancy beatjumper :)

Image
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Tone Deft
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by Tone Deft » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:15 pm

wow, you make it look so easy. searching for 'nudge' in the Live Object Model:

http://cycling74.com/docs/max5/refpages ... model.html

it looks like you can only observe the state of the nudge buttons. I need to get used to reading that page. much to learn.
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davepermen
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Re: What can you NOT do with MAX4Live?

Post by davepermen » Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:18 pm

those are the global nudges. so if you have two lives, you can nudge one against the other laptop. or against a vinyl deck, or a cdj. or against traktor.

but there are no clip nudges, there never where. so you can't correct any not exact warping of two tracks that, thus, don't fit perfectly. a.k.a dj with live (beatmatching).

but you can emulate it with the proposed solutions from me (i personally like the relative delay solution best hehe :) but it would mean much work so i implement the nudging by doing <1 beatjumps.
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.

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