instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
SubFunk
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by SubFunk » Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:42 pm

anybody human wrote:How did Logic get so good with the plugins. How did that happen?
i honestly don't know, but i guess from all i know and people who met him, it's Dr. gerhard Lengeling... http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Lengeling

apple assured that they get the whole team he build at emagic when they got taken over, apple was more after the developer team then the product itself... my very personal guess.

i think Urs Heckmann is another guy from that kind of caliber. i don't think they are more intelligent or whatever,
i just think it's there attitude and drive to be simply the best at all costs...

it's only about decisions, and the question what do you want? average? getting away with it? being the best? the uber-best?

abletons attitude is not 100% being the uber-best... that is clear, otherwise they would have a little black box with locked in developers feeding them bread and water who would sweat over coding a space designer killer for instance... :wink: ahhh... i forgot, M4L they provide the platform and let others do the work... right!

just kidding, guys..... even there is some little truth in it.
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shatzer
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by shatzer » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:11 pm

anybody human wrote:I've always heard Logic's plug ins are great but I know Pro Tools plugins are god awful. Absolutely terrible. I'd take Live's over Pro Tools any day of the week. It's part of how you choose a DAW I suppose. If you want all in one everybody says Logic. I agree that workflow improvements are more Live's thing anyway, that's what sets it apart. I see the point about mix tools that Leeds was making though.

As for reverb, there aren't that many good reverbs period, other than convolution, and there aren't a lot of those either. Take $800+ and buy Altiverb and Aether, solved :wink:

How did Logic get so good with the plugins. How did that happen?
Edit: Are they really that good? People say they're great.
Are you freaking serious?? DVerb is hands down better than Live's Reverb. Their compressors, eqs, well pretty much everything is better than Lives plugs. So is every other DAW out there. Lives plugs are probably the worse i've ever used but they are made for playing LIVE. Great in that aspect but not for studio use in MY opinion. I'm not trying to change your mind about Pro Tools plugs but saying something like that is just ignorant.
I think Live needs better plugs. For the price that you pay for Live compared to any other DAW out there is completely ridiculous. I love Live, but damn. Its not worth the 550 or 850 you pay for it at all.

SubFunk
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by SubFunk » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:34 pm

shatzer wrote:
anybody human wrote:I think Live needs better plugs. For the price that you pay for Live compared to any other DAW out there is completely ridiculous. I love Live, but damn. Its not worth the 550 or 850 you pay for it at all.
i agree here (ok i don't think it's ridiculous, but certainly to much), even i am generally speaking agree with Machinesworking about the focus on performance improvements, but Lives plugs in respect to what is delivered by competitors and considering the price, well... in smooth words needs an rather large scaled overhaul for sure.
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leedsquietman
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by leedsquietman » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:47 pm

Pro Tools stock plugins aren't that great (unless you pay to upgrade and get extra Bomb Factory bundles) but they are not worse than Live's. Most pro studios running Protools look to 3rd party plugins such as McDSP, Waves and others much of the time.

Although I personally don't think Live's FX are that bad, except for the reverb. The Compressor is really good - perhaps they can make a 'vintage' or 'character' compressor to compliment it as is the norm in many other DAWS (yes, we already know that you can emulate vintage within the current settings to a degree). EQ8 is a good EQ, but give it some extra power in the high and low pass filtering (with steeper dB/octave slopes) and maybe add a linear phase EQ. Not having a convolution reverb makes Live about the last DAW to not have one. Also, the modulation FX could be better, they are more on the artificial/metallic side than rich, look at the Corvex plugin in Samplitude for inspiration here. The limiter could be improved by having more algorithms and oversampling added.

Having said all of this, there is still no reason why you couldn't make something sound great totally in the box (especially with Live Suite) - if you have the skills and creativity, even though you might prefer XYZ plugin. I also agree about the price, every DAW manufacturer reduced prices in the past 18 months except for Ableton. Live SUite is 349 dollars more expensive than Logic, Cubase and Sonar and although it's a niche market, this is a little bit over the top, IMHO. Especially given that it is typically on a yearly (12-15 months) upgrade cycle, as opposed to 18-24 months typically for Logic and Cubase. (and with a higher upgrade cost).

It's a tough one, because there are always going to be a significant % of users who would prefer to stop competing on the lines of a trad DAW and bring innovative features and workflow improvements in, but more and more Live is being judged as a DAW now and as you've seen from the numerous threads about it's audio engine and (unfounded) negativity in that direction, it has to compromise to a degree and cater for this too.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

arachnaut
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by arachnaut » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:30 pm

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Last edited by arachnaut on Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

davepermen
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by davepermen » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:43 pm

Tarekith wrote:I think Live's compressor is pretty good, I'd leave that one alone.

I'd love to see all the delays combined into one plug in, with more multi-tap or tape style options.


More analysis tools would be nice, stereograph, different metering options (K-system implementation would be huge here), dynamics measurement tools like the new Brainworx.

Better reverb for sure.

Better SRC during export, license the Izotope SRC algorithm along with MBIT+ dithering.
+1 for cleaning up all the delay effects. combine them to one, like the two compressors got combined.

+1 for the rest, as you could use it. and maybe i could, too, dunno :)
http://davepermen.net my tiny webpage, including link to bandcamp.

anybody human
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by anybody human » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:16 am

shatzer wrote:
anybody human wrote:I've always heard Logic's plug ins are great but I know Pro Tools plugins are god awful. Absolutely terrible. I'd take Live's over Pro Tools any day of the week. It's part of how you choose a DAW I suppose. If you want all in one everybody says Logic. I agree that workflow improvements are more Live's thing anyway, that's what sets it apart. I see the point about mix tools that Leeds was making though.

As for reverb, there aren't that many good reverbs period, other than convolution, and there aren't a lot of those either. Take $800+ and buy Altiverb and Aether, solved :wink:

How did Logic get so good with the plugins. How did that happen?
Edit: Are they really that good? People say they're great.
Are you freaking serious?? DVerb is hands down better than Live's Reverb. Their compressors, eqs, well pretty much everything is better than Lives plugs. So is every other DAW out there. Lives plugs are probably the worse i've ever used but they are made for playing LIVE. Great in that aspect but not for studio use in MY opinion. I'm not trying to change your mind about Pro Tools plugs but saying something like that is just ignorant.
I think Live needs better plugs. For the price that you pay for Live compared to any other DAW out there is completely ridiculous. I love Live, but damn. Its not worth the 550 or 850 you pay for it at all.
No I am not ignorant.

I don't like Pro Tools plugins. I don't use them. Don't use Live's either. I've spent way more than I should have on plugins because I wanted them for a reason, the way they sound. If you want a quality bundled reverb there's Logic's Space Designer. D Verb sounds digital grainy and Live's sounds box-y wang-y. I think D Verb can work if you eq the return track to shape it and Live's works on an instrument in a pinch but it will go "bong wang". Just off the top of my head I think you can get good results with Live's chorus, phaser, compressor (levels, not for tone) and delays (check out Time Designer- cool free delay racks).

This is my opinion. It does not make me ignorant or wrong. It just means I disagree with you, which in real life would be no big deal but on the internet people feel free to call each other ignorant or worse at the drop of a hat. That is ridiculous.

alex.the.forge
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by alex.the.forge » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:47 am

Tarekith wrote:I think Live's compressor is pretty good, I'd leave that one alone.
.
+1

3dot...
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by 3dot... » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:20 pm

alex.the.forge wrote:
Tarekith wrote:I think Live's compressor is pretty good, I'd leave that one alone.
.
+1
+1....
I actually love most of Live's fx...
MY REVIEWS :
eqs...

eq8...
scale knob and eq modes are very helpful...
mind you it's gentle (goes only to -15db per band)
duplicating 'bands' for stronger effect is sometimes essential
(although I wish I could control 'mode' from midi)

eq3...
simple/effective...nothing bad to say about it...

dynamics..
compressor...
...use it all the time...does the job well...slams well too
(if you need a more violent 'slamming' comp...I'd suggest Audio-Damage Rough-Rider..it's my current go-to for f'n up drums)

multiband... LOVE IT...
this one is the most 'musical' one that I've used...

Limiter... I have no complaints..

gate...
a gate with sc...'hold' and 'flip'...
what more can you ask for...

Delays...
Simple Delay does the job...

PingPong ...'F' button is nice..

Filter Delay I don't use so much (at all)...

Grain Delay Uber Alles...

beat repeat... small changes go a long way.. I like using it gently...
adding textures in the background...
or as a random rhythmic gate..
almost never for pitch shifting or rough repeats..
and the 'repeat' button is very good for making 'techno' out of any Percussive loop...

'Verbs...

Reverb... learned to use this one... you can actually make it sound good with different combos...
I mostly use 2 in a row...
it's not my go-to reverb though..

Corpus....AMAZING AND INSPIRING !!!!!

Resonators... love it...like 'Reverb' it can be bland ..but is a great 'building block' for beautiful things..

Distortion...

Dynamic Tube... meh... you want tubes get tubes..

Erosion...great !

overdrive...still learning this one..

saturator... joy...

redux... small building block for digital mayhem..

Vinyl... instant gratification on the drum breaks...horns...and keys..

Modualtion...

AutoPan... best panner around...all the controls you'll need...

AutoFilter...versatile...
I find that it' needs saturation/eq after to give it some 'character'...which is not a bad thing...
I sometimes double it withing a rack to make it more violent..
modulation controls are great...
the new 'envelope follow' is a bit 'tame' for my taste..
needs a bit more envelope tweaking I guess..

Chorus/Flanger/Phaser ...like some other devices need some coloring after... I hardly ever use those anyways..

Frequency Shifter...it's a freq shifter/ringmod..and it's a good implementation of those...

Vocoder...an exotic effect...I don't really need it... :wink:

Utils...
Utility... not much I can say... handy
Spectrum... the ability to 'float' it would be nice.. also a phase/vector meter...
(I use Voxengo Span and flux Stereo tool instead..)




I use most of live's device palette ALL THE TIME...
most of them are bread and butter...
I like the fact that I control most of the 'coloring'..
and I think no matter how good live's devices are/would be...
the need to compliment live's plugs will always be there..
it's for this reason that studios have more than 1 type of mic/amp/comp/eq or monitors etc..
bottom line is.. I'm pretty pleased with Live's fx..
it has everything I REALLY need to make music inside...no bs..
Last edited by 3dot... on Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kb420
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by kb420 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:23 pm

3dot... wrote:'Verbs...

Reverb... learned to use this one... you can actually make it sound good with different combos...
I mostly use 2 in a row...
it's not my go-to reverb though..

This actually works pretty good. I've been doing this a lot recently.
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger..........."
-Friedrich Nietzsche-

3dot...
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by 3dot... » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:45 pm

kb420 wrote:
3dot... wrote:'Verbs...

Reverb... learned to use this one... you can actually make it sound good with different combos...
I mostly use 2 in a row...
it's not my go-to reverb though..

This actually works pretty good. I've been doing this a lot recently.
nice fsu reverb rack..

http://www.2shared.com/file/9952390/281 ... EEZER.html

yep...
but I agree it's a whole lot of a hassle to get good results with it...
this is what I use 99% of the times...
http://galbanum.com/products/aether/
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steff3
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by steff3 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:02 pm

[quote="SubFunk"]putting some serious energy into pushing the quality of the plugs into a super high level? and creating a few more, like one compressor that is a brutal squasher a la dbx 160 and one which is clean and transparent like a crane song
and / or a linearphase EQ and a reverb that actually creates a room not a box or shaking industry hall, etc. (talking to the abes)

not talking about the weirdo sound screw plugs, talking about classic mix tools, EQ, Compressor, Reverb, etc.

those are actually way more important 'items' that can help to 'shape' a good mix.[/quote]

IMHO there are other companies who are specialised in that (only have some products that do exactly that) and they are most likely more sophisticated. If Ableton had to put that much effort in this they need to get the money back in some way. (not that they cannot do that - but image Ableton 9 coming with just a new compressor which is great - but the update is the normal price. Too time intensive and will not pay back IMHO)

I would like them to keep looking into things that are rare and where we do not have tons of good choices anyway. Those are USPs .... And there is not a good compressor - there are different compressors which do great jobs on specific material.

best

shatzer
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by shatzer » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:54 pm

anybody human wrote:
shatzer wrote:
anybody human wrote:I've always heard Logic's plug ins are great but I know Pro Tools plugins are god awful. Absolutely terrible. I'd take Live's over Pro Tools any day of the week. It's part of how you choose a DAW I suppose. If you want all in one everybody says Logic. I agree that workflow improvements are more Live's thing anyway, that's what sets it apart. I see the point about mix tools that Leeds was making though.

As for reverb, there aren't that many good reverbs period, other than convolution, and there aren't a lot of those either. Take $800+ and buy Altiverb and Aether, solved :wink:

How did Logic get so good with the plugins. How did that happen?
Edit: Are they really that good? People say they're great.
Are you freaking serious?? DVerb is hands down better than Live's Reverb. Their compressors, eqs, well pretty much everything is better than Lives plugs. So is every other DAW out there. Lives plugs are probably the worse i've ever used but they are made for playing LIVE. Great in that aspect but not for studio use in MY opinion. I'm not trying to change your mind about Pro Tools plugs but saying something like that is just ignorant.
I think Live needs better plugs. For the price that you pay for Live compared to any other DAW out there is completely ridiculous. I love Live, but damn. Its not worth the 550 or 850 you pay for it at all.
No I am not ignorant.

I don't like Pro Tools plugins. I don't use them. Don't use Live's either. I've spent way more than I should have on plugins because I wanted them for a reason, the way they sound. If you want a quality bundled reverb there's Logic's Space Designer. D Verb sounds digital grainy and Live's sounds box-y wang-y. I think D Verb can work if you eq the return track to shape it and Live's works on an instrument in a pinch but it will go "bong wang". Just off the top of my head I think you can get good results with Live's chorus, phaser, compressor (levels, not for tone) and delays (check out Time Designer- cool free delay racks).

This is my opinion. It does not make me ignorant or wrong. It just means I disagree with you, which in real life would be no big deal but on the internet people feel free to call each other ignorant or worse at the drop of a hat. That is ridiculous.
I didn't mean to offend you in any way. Ignorant doesnt exactly mean stupid, just maybe uneducated. True everything is subjective, you may like something, i like something else, and the next guy likes a different thing. But saying that PT plug ins just suck and you would take live's plugs over them, was an uneducated statement in my opinion. Please dont take that the wrong way I'm not trying to start an argument.

ethios4
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Re: instead of the nonsense engine discussions how about...

Post by ethios4 » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:47 pm

Gate needs to be able to set a lower threshold.

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