quality loss when rendering

[leedsquietman]

OK. Peace, no harm done. I think we are just looking at things from a different context like you said.

Everything is cool.

I haven't done your test but I'm sure that in the context you describe, it works out as you describe.

[SubFunk]

OK. Peace, no harm done. I think we are just looking at things from a different context like you said.

Everything is cool.

I haven't done your test but I'm sure that in the context you describe, it works out as you describe.

+1

and keep in mind to stay away (all of you) from using normalising.

[alex.the.forge]

this has probably been asked a thousand times, but i just had a talk with a "pro" sound enginerd, and he told me that rendering files several times caused losses in audio quality.
i seriously doubt it, but i'd like to have some other feedback.

also: i have to render files in 16 an 24 bits to 24 in order to mix them. there's no need to dither, right?
does converting 16 to 24 add some artifacts of any kind?

thanks for the help

surely he must have meant if you dither every time? Did he just assume for some reason you didn't know about dither?

I can't see how rendering a digital file several times could make any difference at all unless you dither/change bit rate or sample rate each time

but dithering is something that should only be done once

[ethios4]

So why are you hearing a difference? First - Have yo got the normalize button active? If you have then there will be a difference. It will compensate the master level to prevent you clipping the output in live so you won't get the distortion that you get when you're playing back in Live

It is almost impossible to clip the master in Live hard enough to hear it....certainly goint +6 dB isn't going to do it. If the master is in the red you won't hear it, but it would show up in a render for sure. Therefore Captain Comeback won't be hearing any clipping distortion. So that's not the problem.

I have no idea why the bass loss. It almost certainly has nothing at all to do with rendering or dithering. I would guess there is an error in the process somewhere causing the problem.

[evon]

Do we really need anything above 16 Bit 44.1 KHz? That combination can hold lots of information and give a very decent representation of the analog signal, especially for dance music.

Well I have gone full circle and am now experimenting with 16/44.1 all over again but from a different perspective. This is mainly to see if my style of music warrants anything higher. My projects are intended for CD and mp3.
In this way I can cut out the dithering stage. The aim is to find the optimum headroom to be at after mixing and just how much limiting to use during pre-mastering.

I have been getting some subtle delecious results so far. I try to keep the same vibes right through from take to master keeping things not too hot but just right.

[ethios4]

^ you still have to dither, even if your final export is 16-bit. Live mixes at 64-bit, so no matter what there is a reduction in bit depth, and therefore dithering is necessary. Or did I misunderstand?

[ikeaboy]

Captain Comeback - like Tarekith, I do demo mastering. If you want to send me an example of your work PM me, I will use my ears (primarily) and visual analysis to determine how I would approach your issues, and send you back a remastered version with a note documenting the changes I made for free, as a gesture of goodwill to another forum user (I usually charge for this type of service). If your .wav file is recorded at 32 bit / 96 this will take an age to upload, so hopefully the track won't be too long !! Don't dither or normalize the file. No obligations. (Maybe also send me the previous 16 bit .wav file you processed so I can compare).

Alright I guess. I can send you both of the files if you want....the 32bit/96khz undithered file and also the 16bit/96khz dithered one. The tune is about 7:45 in length. You're also not too far away from me if you're in the GTA

Take Leeds up on this one, the man gave me some of his time a while back to give his opinions on my mastering and it opened my ears to a whole lot of things I was deaf to before.

[evon]

^ you still have to dither, even if your final export is 16-bit. Live mixes at 64-bit, so no matter what there is a reduction in bit depth, and therefore dithering is necessary. Or did I misunderstand?

Good point...I guess I forgot everything about that. So..there goes my experiment. Therefore, it was just an illusion me thinking that there were no artifacts.
Then again, what is being affected when the preferences in Live is set to 16bit/44.1KHz?

[ethios4]

You can only set the bit-depth for recordings, since the mix engine is 64-bit. Setting the sample rate in preferences affects the sound of playback, and the sample-rate of frozen/consolidated/recorded material. I usually forget to do this, but if you like to freeze/consolidate/record you should set your sample rate to 88.2 if your final medium is CD (44.1) - before you work on your project. It's an easy conversion from 88.2 to 44.1.... 48 > 44.1 is more likely to introduce mathematical artifacts because the relationship of 44.1 to 48 is not simple. Same with multiples of 48, such as 96 and 192.

[evon]

Gwaan ethios4...Tarekith watch out . Guess I need to do a refresher in Live.

[stevemac]

Just reading through this thread, it seems relevant but not specific to my question;

When I have a sample or midi part playing in live, upon export (using master channel) and import it back into the project - it is quieter than the original. Can anyone tell me why this is. Project set up as 24bit and 44.1hz, render the same.

Any ideas??

thanks for any help guys

[evon]

This implies that the signal level at the point of export is much lower than what you are hearing through the monitors/Master Track. But what is coming through your monitors is should be the same as what was exported.

Therefore, if everything else is equal this would imply that Live exports the signal Pre-Master Channel and the monitors are fed Post-Master channel.

Although, my first thought on reading your comment was that probably you re-activated the Limiter on the Master Track after export.

[toffgarte]

Were you able to resolve your problem with the loss of bass after redering?
I discovered the same problem and found the problem.
Are you using elephant limiter with a Mac osx?

[Warmonger]

Hello, I encountered the problem again.

Simply put, mix rendered at 88200 Hz sounds worse than rendered at 44100, even though it should not. Actually, I would expect and have got better results with higher quality in the past. Sounds misses a lot of details and definitions at higher frequencies.

My other settings:
- 32 bit depth
- Triangular dithering
- Normalize OFF
- Windows 7
- External soundcard that supports high sampling rates, in case it could ever influence the sound. It's EMU 0202 with latest drivers.

Each of my plugin is either Ableton native or has been tested alone at both sampling rates. It's the mix alltogether (or just effect chains) that cause the issue.

Spectrum analysis or correlation meter shows no obvious differences.

Is there anybody who has actually solved similiar issue?

Do we really need anything above 16 Bit 44.1 KHz?

We don't need it at listening stage. We want it at processing stage to remove aliasing and get better resolution for internal plugin algorithms.

[chapelier fou]

no need to dither if you render at 32bit