OT: election scare tactics

Lucid · Post by **Lucid** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:17 pm

There is a difference IMOP between ( the right to drive a car, the right to talk on a cell phone, and the right to have a roof over you head ) and the right to keep breathing ( within reason ) with the assistance of thousands of years of medical progress.

Yes, we will have to PAY to some extent to support the welfare of others, but that is the nature of ALL taxes - roads, defense, education, etc.

It is beyond past due that we wake up and start trying to work harder to better the living conditions for humanity at large, warts and all, than simply to put the blinders on, ignore the suffering of others, and work solely for our own personal short-term gain. Sure, there are tons of stupid, decrepid fucks out there, but they are going to stay fucking stupid and decrepid and be a continual burden on society unless we help them. And in my mind, the first step to elevating the human race at large is insuring that health is protected. Next, we take steps to make sure that we

1 - Don't kill each other off and waste resources doing so.
2 - Work together to get resource shortages, global climate change, disease, and overpopulation under control.
3 - Try to secure an attainable, basic standard of living and basic human rights for all.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:11 pm

djshiva wrote: after all, you can't take it with you, not matter how much you got...

EXACTLY!!! and i think this underscores a general difference in opinion between two types of people in the world. those who horde their money, and those who share it.

a capitalist society CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT AN IMPOVERISHED THIRD WORLD AND LOWER CLASS.

read it again people... A CAPITALIST SOCIETY CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT AN IMPOVERISHED THIRD WORLD AND LOWER CLASS.

alot of the goods you buy are made in taiwan or vietnam, etc. etc. by companies who are under the knife of the WTO and interest rates from the International Monetary Fund that are so high, not even the US's economy could dig themselves out in 100 years time if given a loan under the same conditions. So labor practices are put aside and folks are payed 15 cents a day. Now your t-shirts are $10 instead of $30, same goes for the rest of your clothing, electronics, plastic products. Without a third world raping its own people to make these products AFFORDABLE for YOU!!! they wouldn't be affordable, and you yourself would be in poverty because you couldn't afford to live.

look at the large picture folks. this is a large rock we live on. there are only so many resources. Every extra square foot you have in your house is 5 square feet that 10 other people don't have in the third world. Every dollar you save on old navy clothing, is a dollar less an hour a worker in Mexico could make. Every buck you save at going to Walmart instead of Target, is because Walmart employees have the worst healthcare plan and aren't allowed to unionize to get a better deal.

I'm not trying to make you feel guilty about having more than others. But it really gets my goat when people horde their excess, and don't realize that they have EXCESS because others have nothing. You don't deserve anymore than them, you were just born in the richer nation.

Winterpark · Post by **Winterpark** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:53 am

FaX-01 wrote:Astral Fridge Magnet - Democracy or the very ethos of true due democratic process is not to subliminally manipulate the masses through ,fear ,conjecture ,misinformation ,disinformation ,abuse of patriotic privilidge and the like.
If you think it is then your idea of democracy is more like an autocratic oligogy at best or fuedalism at it's worst - take your pick.
Geeesh - talk about being quoted out of context .

One two three - hip hip hooray Three Cheers For Nepotism .

hear it people!

and think about it....

is this happening to YOUR "democracy"?!

-am

Hypomixolydian · Post by **Hypomixolydian** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:08 am

To FaX-01

I am not after a fight/argument but I feel I need to respond.

A democracy is a government by the people or their elected representatives. This process involves that the electorates exercise a choice (a free choice) in who they want to represent them in government and a majority vote wins.

You say

Democracy or the very ethos of true due democratic process is not to subliminally manipulate the masses through ,fear ,conjecture ,misinformation ,disinformation ,abuse of patriotic privilidge and the like.

Tell me which political party doesn't employ that tactic to some extent during times of elections. I would like to believe that people these days are cynical enough to see through the propaganda (or are they?).

I am also an Aussie from Melbourne, though these days I live in Europe, so I guess I am not as pissed off as you that Howard got in. I don't know who I would have voted for if I had been there and had to vote. I don't have any loyalties to any political party. Come times of elections I prefer to listen to what all parties have to say and then exercise my "free choice" based on the policies they promote and political climate at the time.

You say that my notion of democracy is

If you think it is then your idea of democracy is more like an autocratic oligogy at best or fuedalism at it's worst - take your pick.

Well, I could just as easily accuse you by saying that your idea of government is imposing the will of the minority, which is no better than what the Taliban were doing in Afghanistan, or what Muslim fundamentalists are doing elsewhere. Howard won by an ovewhelming majority reached by a democratic process!!! There was nothing dubious about it as in the case of Bush in the last American elections. It was a clear cut win. A democratic choice!!!!

As I said before, I am not looking for a fight. I want to emphasise too that I don't mean any disrespect. Should you wish to continue this argument I hope that it remains civil. Basically, the point I am trying to make is that Howard got in by a democratic process and that even though you may not be happy with it, you have to accept the majority decision. That is democracy for you!!!

Regards

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:08 am

considering 500,000 more people voted for Al Gore than George W. Bush in 2000 and George W. Bush has been our President since then, i'd say i do not live in a democracy. The electoral college can kiss my ass. with or without it we cannot seem to hold a fair election. Even smaller instances of voting like American Idol have been proven to be fixed.

we live in an ILLUSION of democracy. tis' very much like the Matrix i must say.

forge · Post by **forge** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:28 am

to quote the saturday afternoon satire on radio 2

' "Iraq will have a freely elected government they can trust by January"

- Doubtful when the US doesn't have a freely elected government, and we dont have one we can trust'

most people here in the UK are absolutely bewildered by what happened in Iraq. Largest protests EVER staged in the UK against it.
The consensus seems to be that with George dubbya what else would you expect? but the Labour government here actually pretended to be into things like human rights and Tony Blair actually stood up in front of the whole nation and spouted the most unbelievably transparent complete and utter bullshit which nobody in their right mind even believed he could believe himself. The question of any of it being true was never even considered. Journalists ressurected the old Churchill quote 'If he knew about it he's too wicked to be Prime minister, and if he didn't he's too stupid to be Prime Minister.'

And the scary thing is he'll probably get back in next year because people don't actually expect anything better any more, and the main opposition party are an even bigger bunch of fools, while the Liberal democrats - the only party with half an ounce of decency are still too small to hope of taking government.

The whole world seeems to be in a state of stunned disbelief, completely at a loss as to what we can actually do about our complete impotence which has been painfully demonstrated, first by the non-election of dubbya and then everything that followed.

I think things like Howard getting back in in Oz is, apart from the economic side of things, largely down to people not really knowing what to do about this new "Big Threat" they want us all to be scared of and the thinking that 'oh well the opera house hasnt been bombed yet, maybe he's doing all right, lets just leave things how they are'

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:32 am

hell in a handbasket folks - thats where we're all headin'

Lucid · Post by **Lucid** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:27 am

Heading ? - We've been there for millenia. People killing people, assholes abusing power, it has always been the same. Society is structured so that one man can live a more pleasurable life at the expense of another.

"Democracy" - What better way to make the masses too confused to actualize the source of their frustrations than to convince them that the massively inequal distribution of wealth and power is the path they chose for themselves?

Hypomixolydian · Post by **Hypomixolydian** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:59 pm

I think things like Howard getting back in in Oz is, apart from the economic side of things, largely down to people not really knowing what to do about this new "Big Threat" they want us all to be scared of and the thinking that 'oh well the opera house hasnt been bombed yet, maybe he's doing all right, lets just leave things how they are'

You are probably right about that

pez · Post by **pez** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:13 pm

Are you guys fuuking kiding me? Is there anyone moderating this list? Do we really need to be having political discussions on an audio forum? I don't care how important you feel an off topic subject is, this is no place for it!

I realize that this post was listed as "off topic", but that is not excuse for this blatent and idiotic misuse of this audio forum. I know that there will be those of you that argue that if you don't want to read it just skip over it... and those are the people missing my point. This is a place for people to get answers about Ableton Live. If you bog down, distract and waste people's time with off topic shiiit... they are less likely to contribute and respond to questions about Live.

If you want to change the world and rid the world of the most lethal WMD, go here: http://buttout.com

If you really want to have political discussions, check out one of these forums and knock yourself out!
http://www.libertynewsforum.com
http://www.itsallpolitics.com
http://www.mondopolitico.com/discus/mes ... opics.html
http://www.network54.com/Forum/238025

forge · Post by **forge** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:05 pm

pez wrote:Are you guys fuuking kiding me? Is there anyone moderating this list? Do we really need to be having political discussions on an audio forum? I don't care how important you feel an off topic subject is, this is no place for it!

I realize that this post was listed as "off topic", but that is not excuse for this blatent and idiotic misuse of this audio forum. I know that there will be those of you that argue that if you don't want to read it just skip over it... and those are the people missing my point. This is a place for people to get answers about Ableton Live. If you bog down, distract and waste people's time with off topic shiiit... they are less likely to contribute and respond to questions about Live.

If you want to change the world and rid the world of the most lethal WMD, go here: http://buttout.com

If you really want to have political discussions, check out one of these forums and knock yourself out!
http://www.libertynewsforum.com
http://www.itsallpolitics.com
http://www.mondopolitico.com/discus/mes ... opics.html
http://www.network54.com/Forum/238025

rubbish.

The reason this post - clearly marked "OT" is taking place here is because we're live users and all regular faces and also interested in each others opinions and attached to this forum as a regular haunt, mainly because it's one of the few forums not full of dickheads - and it is the 'general' forum, which is for Live users to vent

jesus man, just ignore it if you don't like it

pez · Post by **pez** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:24 pm

forge wrote:rubbish.

The reason this post - clearly marked "OT" is taking place here is because we're live users and all regular faces and also interested in each others opinions and attached to this forum as a regular haunt, mainly because it's one of the few forums not full of dickheads - and it is the 'general' forum, which is for Live users to vent

jesus man, just ignore it if you don't like it

For Christ sake, did you even take the time to read my post? Don't give me this "just ignore it" BS, that's a load of crap! An appropriate OT subject would be something audio related, not some endless four page blathering about world politics. This is not the place for it!

Is anyone moderating this muthafuker?

Lucid · Post by **Lucid** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:30 pm

Pez - You have no motive for your posts in this topic other than instigation. If you are not interested in this topic, just leave it alone. Clearly there are many who are interested and have no problem with it being discussed on the Ableton forum. So, democracy rules. Haha.

Forge is correct - the topic is cleary marked OT. Let it go, Pez.

pez · Post by **pez** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:05 pm

Lucid wrote:Pez - You have no motive for your posts in this topic other than instigation. If you are not interested in this topic, just leave it alone. Clearly there are many who are interested and have no problem with it being discussed on the Ableton forum. So, democracy rules. Haha.

Forge is correct - the topic is cleary marked OT. Let it go, Pez.

Geez, are you really so ignorant? The motive for my post is that Live users are not getting their questions answered! Instead...visitors that may be participating by answering legitmate user questions (the purpose of this forum) are being distracted by bullshhit political discussions started by someone who starts his post with "I know I should not posting this off topic post here but what the heck, I am going to do it anyways!"

Hypomixolydian · Post by **Hypomixolydian** » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:23 pm

Geez, are you really so ignorant? The motive for my post is that Live users are not getting their questions answered!

Of course people are getting their questions answered with regard to Ableton questions, but not on this thread.
The fact that so many people have responded and put their two bobs worth suggests that people want to discuss it. So don't get so hung up about it Pez. You can skip it if it bothers you so much. There are loads more threads to read.

OT: election scare tactics

Are you guys fuuking kiding me?

Re: Are you guys fuuking kiding me?

Re: Are you guys fuuking kiding me?