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Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:44 am
anybody human wrote:Wow, we really are fanboys.
"We value quality over innovation". After a football team lost a game the press said "but they played hard". The coach said, "I take playing hard for granted, I want execution so we can win the game". Isn't quality supposed to be a given?
In theory. Practically every single release is a compromize. And this is also true for every piece of electronic music hardware I own. At some point a company has to decide to release that thing. If you wait for the perfect product you'll wait an infinite time and you are off the scene before you've even started. The problem is that it is hard to find the right balance. And in retrospective we felt, that with Live 8 that balance was not as we would it like to be. A situation which was for many reasons not forseeable so clearly during the development process.
If this is anything other than damage control then there are big problems, long term. The whole team is working on bug fixes? Yikes!
It is more effective to do this now than doing anything else. See some earlier postings.
3rd party issues can't all be solved by the host, the other manufacturers have to see enough Live use to care unfortunately. It took Netflix years to cater to Macs. How many people actually bought M4L?
Enough to make us care about it!
Share wasn't used by customers, people don't even want to collaborate with folks they know. I applaud the innovation, but I think Live missed the boat by not doing whatever it took to get a reputation as a full featured DAW (basics not bundled content), they already had the innovation angle.
Old known problem: 'complete DAW' plus live perfromance tool plus other things is a combination that takes more resources than we have. Feel free to have a look at jobs@abeton...
Hope they get it figured out but this is a bad sign. To say it's a good sign is just spin IMO, which is hopefully what the original statement was about cos if they really stopped working on the next release something's wrong.
It seems we cannot do it right for everyone, which is not a surprise given the large and diverse user base. Read newspapers, have a look how politics, economics and social interaction works. Its all about negotiation, about making decissions, about discussing solutions. If an idea is really a very good idea or just okay or does not work out as intended is usually something which shows much later. As I said in an earlier post, Gerhard and Bernd decided after long internal discussions to post their message. Of course you can perceive it as a marketing move, but for us its more. And btw. if something's really wrong within a company the public / users are typically the last ones who get notified.....
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:44 am
I wonder if it were possible for Ableton to publish a list of unresolved bugs in Live 8.1 so that users can check if the bugs they experienced made it on the list, and if not, report those bugs to the programmers.
This would be a huge act of taking responsibility. I have spent a lot of time troubleshooting over the years, & could have saved much of that time had I been made aware of existing bugs.
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:19 am
Share wasn't used by customers, people don't even want to collaborate with folks they know.
Actually, I am very, very interested in share. This was/is a very cool feature for me, and I can't wait for Ableton to get it working.
Unfortunately, this feature, has also cause me a major problem, and it is why I am often not at the Ableton Forums much.
Because of, "share," my Ableton Account got connected to my other forum name. A name I made when I forgot my j2j password, and a name with about 10 posts.
obviously, I'd rather continue to be known as j2j... but as far as Ableton's system is concerned.... j2j does not own any products.....
When they fix the bugs, and I upgrade to 8, maybe I will make a phone call, and try and sort this out.....
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:28 am
Perhaps you should read the paper more closely in the morning. I used the words damage control on purpose, not spin in regards to the original statement. Spin was in reference to the reaction that this is somehow a wonderful thing. Damage control is different than spin. I have had no issues with Ableton, use it every day almost exclusively, so I am less than thrilled that developent of Live 9 has stopped.
3rd party was in reference to the 3rd party companies paying attention, not Ableton not caring.
Being misunderstood or taken out of context, old problem.
I do understand the limited resources thing though and have great respect for Ableton.
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:35 am
I am also interested in share, and bought M4L. Just to be clear.
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:36 am
henke wrote:In theory. Practically every single release is a compromize. And this is also true for every piece of electronic music hardware I own. At some point a company has to decide to release that thing. If you wait for the perfect product you'll wait an infinite time and you are off the scene before you've even started. The problem is that it is hard to find the right balance.
I wonder how many people here even consider this stuff? It's long been my contention that if I write songs thinking I will be 100% satisfied with the release, I will never finish anything. I wonder if any of the people claiming the software should be 100% bug free etc. finish songs? or have ever used another DAW? Like I said earlier I can name bad out the door releases from every major DAW manufacturer. The difference here is the willingness to work on fixing it and to not blame users who aren't having fun, third party bugs etc.
I'm pretty good at dogging Ableton, but in this case I honestly do not get it?
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:37 am
anybody human wrote:Perhaps you should read the paper more closely in the morning.
Okay, will do now. It's way too early for the forum anyway and that thread will for sure continue without my contributions
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:43 am
No issues here, glad they're fixing bugs, just not thrilled development has been put on hold. To me that's never a positive but I'm sure they'll get everything straightened out.
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:46 am
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:48 am
...edited .... . . . . . ... . . .. . . . .. .... . .. . . ...
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:49 am
No big deal.
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:52 am
we got the features. just give us our stable Live back!
take your time and do it well.
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:56 am
anybody human wrote: I have had no issues with Ableton, use it every day almost exclusively, so I am less than thrilled that developent of Live 9 has stopped.
So it's your own luck in a good configuration that makes you post?
anybody human wrote: Isn't quality supposed to be a given?
Hard to misunderstand that you maybe possibly haven't been using DAWs for years on end, otherwise it would be painfully obvious that the more complex a DAW gets the more likely a release will end up bellow par without any intention on the parts of the developers. I could walk away from Logic 7.0 and it would crash while I got coffee. Before that it was rock solid, and plenty of users weren't experiencing any bugs at all. I tried for months to solve the problem, and eventually an update to 7.0.2 did it for me.
Meantime Apple didn't acknowledge dick! Personally I don't care if the announcement is a "publicity stunt" or not, it worked in convincing me they actually care. and to be upset that you're going to have to wait on 9? Quality isn't a given, it's a huge chunk of work to achieve, and the more complex the product the harder it is to achieve.
I'm sorry I just cannot get over how condescending Henke's post was. "Read the paper, have a look at how politics, economics, social interaction work". WTF? Oh, I was unaware that life is complicated. Nice man. Real nice. Classy.
You're reaching here, you posted a huffy post to begin with, and I really didn't read anything condescending into what he wrote at all.
Sure you can take my post here as condescending if you want, but that's not the point, if you say quality is a given, then you simply haven't used DAWs for very long. Granted I'm on the long stretch in that department, since 97, but believe me, this discussion of quality control and whether a DAW needs serious "work" to get it "right", is in every DAW forum I can think of. Logic, DP, Cubase, Pro Tools, Traction, Reaper etc. ad infinitum.
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:58 am
Damn a company that will stop and attend to the customer is damn near unheard of in the states WOW I'm lost for words. I switched from Sonar because I felt they were bloating the program with all the features that the customers wanted but what I saw was a lost of stability, you can have the top features but at what cost I believe your gonna lose somewhere in the program. What I'd like to see less upgrades and more updates to get the program ready for more features and maybe I'm wrong but I'd rather have a more stable program and pay for the added features as my need for them grows.
Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:00 am
Machinesworking: We both edited the posts out, if you'd save me the embarrassment and do the same I would appreciate it. Thanks.