Microtuning in M4L?

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
ze2be
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Microtuning in M4L?

Post by ze2be » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:55 am

Has anyone figured out micro tuning yet?
Im basically looking for a micro tuning version of the Scale plug. First I thought it could not be done, because of the general logic of midi limitations: Grid with 12 notes. Even though each note can be tuned individually with max, the synths and samplers might not be able to handle it. But its max after all, something should be possible?

Theres Albino, I know. But the whole point of this would be micro tuning any synth in Live.


...im itching to get max..

Lazos
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by Lazos » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:27 am

+1 on this!

slow riot
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by slow riot » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:45 am

it's possible, but would be hard work. (I assume you;re talking about retuning regular soft synths with adjusting midi data (note plus pitch bends).?

However, if you mean retuning within max devices themselves... like max synths etc etc. mcrotuning is pretty easy.
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ze2be
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by ze2be » Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:59 pm

slow riot wrote:it's possible, but would be hard work. (I assume you;re talking about retuning regular soft synths with adjusting midi data (note plus pitch bends).?
Yes! Do you know what the challenge would be? Has anyone tried this?
However, if you mean retuning within max devices themselves... like max synths etc etc. microtuning is pretty easy.
Ok, that's a comfort at least, but not what I was looking for.

chapelier fou
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by chapelier fou » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:22 pm

I think micro tuning is only a note number + pitch bend value.
In max it's very simple. The painful thing is to make the presets for the scales.
But I am 100% sure it has been done in max for years, so I advice you to google it.
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ze2be
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by ze2be » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:41 pm

chapelier fou wrote:I think micro tuning is only a note number + pitch bend value.
In max it's very simple. The painful thing is to make the presets for the scales.
But I am 100% sure it has been done in max for years, so I advice you to google it.
Im on it.. though its a bit difficult as im not using max yet. Im just having a few days of wecation. :D

If I just had a simple midi tuning plug similar to Lives Pitch plug, I could create it with Racks. I don't mind putting some hours into it. However the challenge is to figure out if Lives instruments, and other vsts could handle it! But as you say, its just pitch bend, so it should be pretty standard..

The tuning plug would just be a pitch bend plug! It sounds to me like it has to be created already...

Im going to post on the max forum, and see if I find something. Actually if I sell some software I don't need, I could afford m4l soonish.. However, its really the learning curve that I don't have time to atm. So I would use it as a runtime for a while, before getting my hands dirty.

hoffman2k
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by hoffman2k » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:08 pm

It can be done: http://homepage.mac.com/cerullo/.Public ... _specs.htm

Thats from a quick google search. You essentially want something that can work with .Scala files. Which are microtuning presets and you'll find thousands of them.

There's also a 60$ Max app called Magic microtuner or something, maybe that'll be ported one day.

ethios4
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by ethios4 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:20 pm

So the pitchbend method would only work on monophonic material, right?

For example, I'm very interested in non-equal tempered tunings for perfect majors and minors. I would guess these chords would have to be constructed monophonically since pitchbend would affect the entire chord?

chapelier fou
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by chapelier fou » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:22 pm

No i don't think so. It is not a "method", just use the noteout object and don't care about the rest. I may be mistaken.
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ze2be
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by ze2be » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:34 pm

ethios4 wrote:So the pitchbend method would only work on monophonic material, right?

For example, I'm very interested in non-equal tempered tunings for perfect majors and minors. I would guess these chords would have to be constructed monophonically since pitchbend would affect the entire chord?
I think it would work because each note-on resets the synth notes, no? It woks with clip envelopes and pitch bend..

slow riot
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by slow riot » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:35 pm

99% if soft synths (operator included) only let you use midi pitch bend input to tune all voices at once. Note out wouldn't work polyphonically. For me, the maths to do this (monophonically) is difficult.

I can't imagine how it would be possible to retune soft synths polyphonically (apart from designing a polyphonic system in m4l with ~poly, which seems kind of longwinded)?

For me, I use an external payware program to interface with tuning, which has a monophonic version of this system, which works good for me. Also there are quite a few soft synths that you can load tune files into (Zebra, Alchemy, Reaktor) . Or using a custom made synth in max, as it is very simple to use Coll and/or some simple maths instead of mtof.
Last edited by slow riot on Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ethios4
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by ethios4 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:35 pm

Wow, good to know.

ze2be
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by ze2be » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:42 pm

hoffman2k wrote:It can be done: http://homepage.mac.com/cerullo/.Public ... _specs.htm

Thats from a quick google search. You essentially want something that can work with .Scala files. Which are microtuning presets and you'll find thousands of them.

There's also a 60$ Max app called Magic microtuner or something, maybe that'll be ported one day.
That MAX app seems very interesting. Hope there's some evolution going on there.

So, for instance if I wanted to create a 13 note Bohlen-Pierce Scale with racks, id need a scale plug similar to Lives midi plugs, but with an extra note, and also a tuning plug similar to lives pitch. It would be nice to have them as simple midi effects. Then I could create various midi scale racks.

ze2be
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by ze2be » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:48 pm

slow riot wrote:99% if soft synths (operator included) only let you use midi pitch bend input to tune all voices at once. Note out wouldn't work polyphonically. For me, the maths to do this (monophonically) is difficult.

I can't imagine how it would be possible to retune soft synths polyphonically (apart from designing a polyphonic system in m4l with ~poly, which seems kind of longwinded)?

For me, I use an external payware program to interface with tuning, which has a monophonic version of this system, which works good for me. Also there are quite a few soft synths that you can load tune files into (Zebra, Alchemy, Reaktor) . Or using a custom made synth in max, as it is very simple to use Coll and/or some simple maths instead of mtof.
Ah, bummer! i suspected this.. Thing is, I like using simpler and sampler, and Surge is my main synth. Other synths I can live without, but Surge I rather not! Oh well. Good to know there are a few synths out there at least, but I really don't like to work with most of them.

hoffman2k
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Re: Microtuning in M4L?

Post by hoffman2k » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:49 pm

ze2be wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:It can be done: http://homepage.mac.com/cerullo/.Public ... _specs.htm

Thats from a quick google search. You essentially want something that can work with .Scala files. Which are microtuning presets and you'll find thousands of them.

There's also a 60$ Max app called Magic microtuner or something, maybe that'll be ported one day.
That MAX app seems very interesting. Hope there's some evolution going on there.

So, for instance if I wanted to create a 13 note Bohlen-Pierce Scale with racks, id need a scale plug similar to Lives midi plugs, but with an extra note, and also a tuning plug similar to lives pitch. It would be nice to have them as simple midi effects. Then I could create various midi scale racks.

Like Slow Riot just pointed out, the instrument may be more important than the effect.
To do this with existing instruments that don't support microtuning would require a synth per note.

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