My theory of rhythm

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Khazul
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by Khazul » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:02 pm

Ethios - just listen to your average electro or progessive house bassline and quite alot of lower bm trance - alot of them fall every 3/16th - maybe not for the whole bar, but often 1/2 or 3/4 of it.

Usual other variations - resync the 3/16ths basic pattern every half, one or two bars. Alot of trance resyncs every half bar. Im can think of quite a few 'tarnce' tracks that resync every two bars.

Alot of them run two basslines - one a 1/16 before the other for half a bar then break pattern and join up over the last 6/16ths.

Sometimes may be hard to tell unless you instantly recognise the pattern when you hear it - often they are pumped hard with a compressor keyed from the kick.

Works nicely with CH/OH patterns as well - just let the OH play instead of the CH where it falls on the off-beat - sling a compressor over the drums to help it gel and groove.


When this kics off about a 1/4 the way through - basic 3/16ths baseline pattern for about 2/3rd a bar with variations on the last beat.
Example track.
Nothing to see here - move along!

ethios4
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by ethios4 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:36 pm

Oh wow, thanks so much for the links and thoughts! Very exciting to know this has already been written about in length. Khazul, that is exactly where I was wanting to go with this...thanks!

outershpongolia
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by outershpongolia » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:37 pm

trevorc wrote:
outershpongolia wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:those patterns WILL line up, eventually. think 'greatest common multiplier' from grade school math.

something of length 7 and something of length 4 line up at (at least) 7*4 = 28, then the pattern repeats itself.

if you get where I'm coming from and can point out how I'm not getting you I'd be curious.
My buddy went away to India (and recently Antarctica but that's not the point) and he taught the whole band a bunch of strange time signatures and count-offs. one of them was 7's and 11's I believe, and other odd timings that would evenutally meet back up with each other whether it was 28, 21, 40, etc..

Not easy I'll tell you that..
i went to a sitar recital many years ago, the program notes explained a little about the time signatures and scales used - amazing how much it helped to get a grip of the music for a newcomer. i thought it was 13's but maybe it was 11's... it's a similar thing listening to jazz, where time sigs can be complicated and change through a piece, but there's usually a return and reset.

some good links up there - any other good, simple web links on times signatures and how to count/detect them? from scratch it's one thing i can't wrap my brain around :(

You're probably right with the 13's. We smoked a lot of weed in that back room :mrgreen:

mescalin
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by mescalin » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:53 pm

i just hit shit until it sounds good :lol:

Ableton 8, NI Massive, Max 4 Live, other stuff

vicz
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by vicz » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:41 pm

mescalin wrote:i just hit shit until it sounds good :lol:
Ah you must be a drummer - whattaya doin in a musicians forum? :lol:

mikemc
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by mikemc » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:02 pm

I'm thinking you have not stated that your scheme assumes starting with 200 equally spaced pulses per minute, where in this scheme a 'pulse' is the smallest (atomic) rhythmic value you can play. That is important.

You also assume 4/4 timing to start, so you start off with a quarter note per pulse by default, giving you 50 measures of music.

So if you "divide" the whole thing by 2, as you say, you have 8 pulses per measure or 1/8th notes, but only 25 measures of 4/4 music where quarter notes occur 100 per minute or 100 bpm.

Then, if you divide it by 3, you get a fractional value of measures two of which you have to round to 17 + 17 + 16 or you negate your original surmise that your pulses are atomic, at which point I have to go to the bathroom now.

Hope this helps.

:)

mescalin
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by mescalin » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:35 pm

vicz wrote:
mescalin wrote:i just hit shit until it sounds good :lol:
Ah you must be a drummer - whattaya doin in a musicians forum? :lol:
are you implying that drummers aren't real muscians? :lol:

actually i play keyboard but that did sound funny didn't it, you can only feel rhythm in my opinion, it just comes from hours and hours of practise, and yeah i may use scales and stuff but ultimatly i'm just "hitting shit until it sounds good" just like Uggg when he picked up some animal bones and started bashing them 200'000 years ago

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LoopStationZebra
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by LoopStationZebra » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:37 pm

Image
I came for the :lol:
But stayed for the :x

Tone Deft
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by Tone Deft » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:39 pm

Guitard Center just had their 'Undiscovered Drummer Of The Year' contest, check the winning contestant's session.

http://gc.guitarcenter.com/drum-off-2009/
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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stringtapper
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by stringtapper » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:48 pm

LoopStationZebra wrote:Image
BRUFORD RULES
Unsound Designer

vicz
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by vicz » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:49 pm

nah THIS is a drummer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrN6zwL2 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etrvv1-2 ... re=related

Legend! Poncey BBC interviewer meets stoner drummer. Rudiments. Flam Triplets. Groovy baby.

emef
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by emef » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:39 am

ethios4 wrote:I've been working on a theory of rhythm in my head for awhile, thought I'd share on the forum and see what people think. I think it's at least somewhat valid, or hopefully at least though provoking. I get some use out of it anyway. Here goes....

Any given length of time can be divided by 2 (symmetrical) or 3 (asymmetrical), in simplest terms. Any greater divisions than 2 or 3 can be expressed as compounds of 2 and 3. For example, say you have a constant pulse of 200 pulses per minute. If you divide it symmetrically you get 1/8th notes in 4/4 at 100 bpm. If you divide it asymmetrically you get 1/8th notes in 12/8 at 66.67 bpm. It is impossible to overlay these two divisions in a way that they will ever resolve on each others terms.

For example in 4/4,
1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
X---x---x---x---X---x---x---x---X = div by 2
X--x--x--x--X--x--x--x--X--x--x--x = div by 3

X = major accent
x = minor accent

The 2 and 3 will never line up perfectly with each other...they forever circle around each other. In the above example, the major accent of 2 and 3 will line up at measure 13, but that is a compound division of time (4 measures x 3, or 3 measure x 4). They will never line up at a completely symmetric or asymmetric divison of time (4 measures x 4, or 3 measures x 3). This incompatibility between symmetry and asymmetry is the basis of rhythmic tension.

The way to get these incompatible divisions of time to work together is by compromising one to fit into the others terms. This means truncating a rhythm to fit in the prescribed time. This is the basis for syncopation.

For example in 4/4,
1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
X---x---x---x---X---x---x---x---X
X--x--x-X--x--x-X--x--x-X--x--x-X

By dropping the last "-" from the sequence of 3 "-"s times 3, the asymmetric pattern is forced into the symmetric phrase length. This rhythm is the first half of a clave pattern, and very very common in music. So there is tension between the two rhythms until the truncation at measure 3 where the pattern is reset. This tension can be extended for a different rhythm.

1---2---3---4---5---6---7---8---9
X---x---x---x---X---x---x---x---X
X--x--x--x--x-x-X--x--x--x--x-x-X

In this example the tension is sustained for 3 measures and the truncation happens in measure 4.

It is best to try these patterns out with music...very hard to understand by looking at little x's and -'s, but it makes sense once you hear it. Another way is to analyze rhythms of tunes. You have to reduce the rhythm to it's main elements, but I find it to work more often than not (for 4/4 music).

It's really hard for me to explain what I'm trying to get across here, and there is a lot more to rhythm than just this, but I find this theory to work surprisingly well for both analysis and composition. I'm at work right now, but I'll try to post an example analysis, and an example composition based on these principles.

hahaha i just hit keys till i like the way the drums sound
you think waaay too much
do you ever get any tracks made for thinking about this shit?

q.musgrove
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by q.musgrove » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:46 am

^ that's a easy way to talk for a person who isn't sharing any tracks OR ideas.

ethios4
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by ethios4 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:53 am

twisted-space wrote:
ethios4 wrote:If there is writing on this subject I'd love to read it....

Unlocking the Groove
Just got this in today. Wow, he talks about exactly the same thing, using the same words! Amazing find...can't wait to absorb this book! :D

swishniak
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Re: My theory of rhythm

Post by swishniak » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:10 am

sounds like you are talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyrhythm

?

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