Ableton, help me to help you!

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
Post Reply
Parametex
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:34 pm

Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by Parametex » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:35 pm

Dear Ableton,

The new quality theme that you are pursuing is very much appreciated and respected. As you are relying almost solely on customer feedback and bug reports to accomplish this new more stabile Live, I here by stress that helping me (as in us) to help you is crucial in your quest.

For me personally, I feel that much of my frequent crashes and problems are due to the collision with 3rd party plugins. This is the most problematic as it leaves all three parties (Abes, 3rd party developers and the users) blaming each others and nothing gets done for fixing the problem.

I would dearly hope there would be a way to pinpoint the possibly misbehaving 3rd party VST/VSTI so that one could either avoid it all together or contact the plugin developer of the particular VST/VSTI and report the behaviour.

I would be great if there were a tool to actually see what plugin made Live crash.

Px

Shillelagh Law
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by Shillelagh Law » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:45 pm

well, sometimes a 3rd party plugin will CONFLICT (I wouldn't say crash, necessarily) with ableton live resulting in a crash. From our point of view it's hard to say who's at fault. But I think if the same 3rd party plugin works fine in other hosts, it's Ableton who need to sort it out...

no ?

I think it's a bit of a fallacy to blame 3rd party plugs without first checking if they crash other hosts too.
Anyone who responds to this message is a stalker. That's the law.

zee verkawound
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:55 pm

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by zee verkawound » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:43 pm

This is an incorrect perspective. I'm not stating you are diminished because of that perspective, it's just not the case. Live will crash, and does crash, randomly. That's why the Abes have not been able to get this thing right.

For instance, Live has always loved NI. No question. I can use NI stuff like crazy for 2 or 3 weeks and then all of a sudden with ZERO environmental changes, crash, crash, crash. I download a new version of live, the latest updated generation, and it's fine for a few weeks and then right back to the same type of random crashes.

I do not even pretend to know anything about code or software or whatever. I just KNOW as a musician what does happen with Live and the various plugins that I use. I also know that live crashes in the exact same way with it's own proprietary plugins. the problem with Live is not 3rd party related.

8O
Posts: 5502
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:29 am
Location: Berlin

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by 8O » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:56 pm

Parametex wrote:I would dearly hope there would be a way to pinpoint the possibly misbehaving 3rd party VST/VSTI so that one could either avoid it all together or contact the plugin developer of the particular VST/VSTI and report the behaviour.
You've seen this -> http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25171 & http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=133496 ?
Image

Parametex
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:34 pm

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by Parametex » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:33 pm

Hi guys and 80 thanks for the link ...

I think providing the option for the users to more clearly see what actually might be the crashing VST/VSTI it would help all parties and would not really left anybody off the hook ... It definitely would help to narrow down what particular 'glitch' and help both developers to start fixing it and give the user a possibility to avoid the offending plug ...

Because IMO crashing, frustration and not getting anything done is the worst inspiration killer.

Shillelagh Law
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:18 pm

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by Shillelagh Law » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:55 pm

zee verkawound wrote:This is an incorrect perspective. I'm not stating you are diminished because of that perspective, it's just not the case. Live will crash, and does crash, randomly. That's why the Abes have not been able to get this thing right.

For instance, Live has always loved NI. No question. I can use NI stuff like crazy for 2 or 3 weeks and then all of a sudden with ZERO environmental changes, crash, crash, crash. I download a new version of live, the latest updated generation, and it's fine for a few weeks and then right back to the same type of random crashes.

I do not even pretend to know anything about code or software or whatever. I just KNOW as a musician what does happen with Live and the various plugins that I use. I also know that live crashes in the exact same way with it's own proprietary plugins. the problem with Live is not 3rd party related.
are you talking to me ?
Maybe you misunderstand me, or I didn't explain myself right, but I'm tired of 3rd party plugins getting the blame because besides the fact it very well might not be the case - it also seems to me like a logical fallacy if the accused 3rd party plugs work fine elsewhere.
Anyone who responds to this message is a stalker. That's the law.

zee verkawound
Posts: 92
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:55 pm

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by zee verkawound » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:39 pm

Shillelagh Law wrote: are you talking to me ?
Maybe you misunderstand me, or I didn't explain myself right, but I'm tired of 3rd party plugins getting the blame because besides the fact it very well might not be the case - it also seems to me like a logical fallacy if the accused 3rd party plugs work fine elsewhere.
No and I am sorry I didn't make a clear reference to the original poster. I agree with you 100%. Something in this whole third party VST plugin equation stinks rotten. I can't speak for mac cause I don't use one.

I just KNOW that I am doing the same things in third party and Suite plugins that DID NOT make live crash before, that make it crash out of the blue in the exact same version. Then I will download the latest version and no more crashes for a few weeks until all of a sudden, out of no where, Live starts crashing again. When Live starts crashing like this, almost anything will get it to crash. It's like you are walking on egg shells.

This is not to say that there are not specific third party issues. Those are typical identifiable bugs. The Live random and frequent crash thing is NOT a typical bug per isolated incident. It does not work that way. If it did you would not get these random and frequent crashes from things that have been done in the same version MANY times previous with no crashes whatsoever.

Parametex
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:34 pm

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by Parametex » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:26 pm

Yeah I agree it's getting a bit paranoid as waves of crashes come and go with no apparent reason. My "normal" crash used to be connected to something that I did with a third party plugs, moving a knob or pulling a menu etc ... nowadays the crash comes out from nowhere while just listening: the cpu meter goes thru the roof and soundcard gets stuck with a looping buffer.

But I agree that who know what's behind the real problem, I always blamed the 3rd party plugs as I'm using them on plural.

Px

leedsquietman
Posts: 6659
Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:56 am
Location: greater toronto area

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by leedsquietman » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:42 pm

If you have another host, do they crash in that?

If a plugin crashes Live, but not Cubase, Soundforge or Renoise (the other DAWS or VST capable hosting programs I use) then I obviously see it as an issue with Live. If the plugin crashes ALL of these hosts, then I see it as an issue with the plugin vendor. It's rare that a plugin crashes say 2/4 and works fine in others, but in these cases, I think the plugin vendor and the DAW manufacturer need to liaise to fix it. In my experience, Live has been just about as stable as Cubase and Soundforge, I had some issues with Jamstix and one or two other plugins, which have been resolved. Renoise is a new purchase, but seems as stable as the rest. Cubase has been by a tad the most stable (not surprising given that they developed the VST format) and with it's long established reputation, it gets tested more than Live and Renoise. Live has grown to the point of being included in most vendors testing, but some of the smaller plugin vendors, and especially freeware, may not have tested their plugin in Live.

Of course, a big problem is that each plays the blame game, laying the problem at the other's door. In private this may not be the case, but the public face is to deny, deny, deny, until the bug is fixed, then praise yourself for fixing the problem (while noting it is a 'liaison' issue so as not to accept full responsibility for the problem).
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.

TobiasHahn
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:15 am
Location: Ableton Headquarters

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by TobiasHahn » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:47 am

Hi Parametex,

thanks for offering to help us improve the quality of our software.

We also see quite a few crashes related to plugins. However, due
to the nature of plugins, namely two pieces of software interacting,
it is sometimes quite challenging to find the cause of a crash.

Finding the true cause of a crash, however, is the crucial part in
fixing a bug. Coding the actual fix once the root cause is known is
usually not very hard.

What you can do to help us when you experience crashes is send
us a zip file of your preferences folder and, if you are on a Mac,
additionally a zip file of your CrashReporter (pre 10.6) or
DiagnosticsReport (10.6) folder (located in
<your home folder>/Library/Logs) to support@ableton.com,
including short description of your problem.

If you want to top it off, send us baby-step by baby-step
instructions on how to reproduce a crash, like
  1. Open the attached Live set.
  2. In the device view of track 3, click the edit button of MyFavoriteVst
  3. Do this: <...> and then that: <...>.
  4. -> Crash.
Every little detail, how unimportant it may seem to you at first,
can matter here and make a difference. The more reports we
receive, the clearer the picture for us and the sooner we will likely
be able to address a specific issue.

Again, thank you for offering your help.

Best wishes,
Tobias

adventurepants_
Posts: 1773
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 3:05 am

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by adventurepants_ » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:04 am

TobiasHahn wrote:Hi Parametex,

thanks for offering to help us improve the quality of our software.

We also see quite a few crashes related to plugins. However, due
to the nature of plugins, namely two pieces of software interacting,
it is sometimes quite challenging to find the cause of a crash.

Finding the true cause of a crash, however, is the crucial part in
fixing a bug. Coding the actual fix once the root cause is known is
usually not very hard.

What you can do to help us when you experience crashes is send
us a zip file of your preferences folder and, if you are on a Mac,
additionally a zip file of your CrashReporter (pre 10.6) or
DiagnosticsReport (10.6) folder (located in
<your home folder>/Library/Logs) to support@ableton.com,
including short description of your problem.

If you want to top it off, send us baby-step by baby-step
instructions on how to reproduce a crash, like
  1. Open the attached Live set.
  2. In the device view of track 3, click the edit button of MyFavoriteVst
  3. Do this: <...> and then that: <...>.
  4. -> Crash.
Every little detail, how unimportant it may seem to you at first,
can matter here and make a difference. The more reports we
receive, the clearer the picture for us and the sooner we will likely
be able to address a specific issue.

Again, thank you for offering your help.

Best wishes,
Tobias

Tobias, can I suggest that this be stickied up the top of the General forum?
nathannn wrote:i will block everyone on this forum if i have to.

dooZ
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:11 am

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by dooZ » Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:47 am

I was able to reproduce my crashes in the Artillery 2 VST in the 8.0.x installs as well as live 8.1.1. I have now traced it down to the newest version of the artillery VST. I was not able to reproduce it with the older 2.0.6 version of Artillery.

I sent out an email to Sugar Bytes but I'm reverting back to Artillery 2.0.6

I'll keep you posted..

Parametex
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:34 pm

Re: Ableton, help me to help you!

Post by Parametex » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:00 am

TobiasHahn wrote:Hi Parametex,

thanks for offering to help us improve the quality of our software.

We also see quite a few crashes related to plugins. However, due
to the nature of plugins, namely two pieces of software interacting,
it is sometimes quite challenging to find the cause of a crash.

Finding the true cause of a crash, however, is the crucial part in
fixing a bug. Coding the actual fix once the root cause is known is
usually not very hard.

What you can do to help us when you experience crashes is send
us a zip file of your preferences folder and, if you are on a Mac,
additionally a zip file of your CrashReporter (pre 10.6) or
DiagnosticsReport (10.6) folder (located in
<your home folder>/Library/Logs) to support@ableton.com,
including short description of your problem.

If you want to top it off, send us baby-step by baby-step
instructions on how to reproduce a crash, like
  1. Open the attached Live set.
  2. In the device view of track 3, click the edit button of MyFavoriteVst
  3. Do this: <...> and then that: <...>.
  4. -> Crash.
Every little detail, how unimportant it may seem to you at first,
can matter here and make a difference. The more reports we
receive, the clearer the picture for us and the sooner we will likely
be able to address a specific issue.

Again, thank you for offering your help.

Best wishes,
Tobias

Hey Tobias thanks for great reply.

I'm happy to help as I find Live far superior to other software DAWs except maybe the current stability in my case. In many cases I'm encountering the above mentioned CPU jump to thousands and buffer glitching but after no provocation ... I'll be sure to continue sending you reports whenever the bug seems consistent. Also from now on I'll be also sure to include the above logs.

Thx and keep up the good fix!

Px

Post Reply