Automap - Kill me now!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
X2theL
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by X2theL » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:37 am

Swordfish wrote:After restarting, and installing Live 8.1 things are definitely playing better. There is no lag when loading plugins...and things are relatively stable. Its pretty stupid that you have to "configure" the plugin to automate it... I still havent worked out how to make Live plugins work properly....the mapping are always spread badly.

And I have to say: I also spent hours and hours trawling the internet for manuals and info - and I was still confused (maybe more so) and Ive been doing this stuff a long time. I think novation could do a much better job of explaining it for Live users and CLEARLY stating the limitations of Automap with Live, especially as mine shipped with a copy of Live. You have to literally scour these forums to get any real info, rather than have it easily accessible on the Novation site where it should be.
The top left encoders in the Ableton template always map to the Ableton plugin/rack in focus unless the plugin/rack is "locked" to the control device.

I've owned a Remote 61SL for a couple of months now and in my opinion its manual(s) is/are among the worst I've ever come across in an electronic device. And I've been doing this stuff for a while. If the people at Focusrite were really that smart they would hire a guy who can actually write a manual.

By the way, I figured out pretty early what midi ports to enable in Live.

My results with Automap so far have been:

Live 7: Several Live sets with Ni instruments that I created custom layouts on the SL for wouldn't load anymore when I opened them the next day.
Live 8: crash upon crash upon crash (and I also remember the hanging while displaying the "all samples loaded" message). But then I only tried the Live 8 demo for a week before deciding that I could very well live without my daw crashing all the time.

33tetragammon
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by 33tetragammon » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:44 am

starving student wrote:can you use automap with controllers that are not made by Novation?
at the present moment only the i-phone.
good question ,they should make automap compatible with any controller out there.

i love automap,but Novation needs to get better components for their pots(the kind that's made to LAST),and put the second screen back into the mk2's,and build it like a tank.
then i'm all over them again,or when the above mentioned happens.

waiting...............


waiting..........

salatspinatra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by salatspinatra » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:16 pm

I just came back to my studio this summer after completing a graduate program. You can expect things to get dusty, need ironing out. Just about everything is working again.

My automap templates on the other hand are utterly unsalvageable. I made one for automat, which if you think about what it took me to plot out 3 sets of oscillators against banks of 8, an irregular count on a mod page that makes macro adjustments to the sound-it took me some thinking to get it all just right. You better believe I saved that shit. Two obligatory updates later (won't work if you don't), with it redumping me back to template 38 and 40 after I moved them to positions 1 and 2 (which obliges me to rebuild my customized elements of those two templates and them move them to 1 and 2 again, without overlooking what in the heck I changed about them), with the updates purging the gear of the defaults I had saved for them, with new versions of automap overriding the unique default mappings I created, with plug-ins not loading or crashing live because it doesn't recognize its newly created and wrapped equivalent, just to name a few gripes, I'm going to have to side with the folks who are fed up with this flimsy crap.

It was the lesser of two evils when I was pondering what it would take to program the CME bitstream. Things must have improved elsewhere since then?

john gordon
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by john gordon » Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:27 pm

i erased auto map and sold my novation controller,they both suck and i couldnt be happier.

omutumo
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by omutumo » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:01 pm

I quite like automap personally but only when I'm making music. Live, I always use my own templates... but here's where my major gripe is:
I have my custom template on 'template 1', whenever I change a setting (going to midi map mode in ableton, set my pot/fader/button) after I turn off midi map mode, my controller always defaults back to template 40 automap.

Its a real ball-ache when you are remapping the whole controller and constantly changing your mind where you want your controls to be... especially when you forget its switched back to automap template and you keep mapping on top of that thinking its the custom one!
argh.

I've been in dialogue with novation tech support about this for months now (seriously... months) and they have given up replying to me in the last couple of weeks (wouldn't even return my phone call when I chased it up the old fashioned way)... This was also the deciding factor when choosing between launchpad/apc20. Loving the APC20 :wink:

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:39 am

omutumo wrote:I quite like automap personally but only when I'm making music. Live, I always use my own templates... but here's where my major gripe is:
I have my custom template on 'template 1', whenever I change a setting (going to midi map mode in ableton, set my pot/fader/button) after I turn off midi map mode, my controller always defaults back to template 40 automap.

Its a real ball-ache when you are remapping the whole controller and constantly changing your mind where you want your controls to be... especially when you forget its switched back to automap template and you keep mapping on top of that thinking its the custom one!
argh.

I've been in dialogue with novation tech support about this for months now (seriously... months) and they have given up replying to me in the last couple of weeks (wouldn't even return my phone call when I chased it up the old fashioned way)... This was also the deciding factor when choosing between launchpad/apc20. Loving the APC20 :wink:
Ya that problem was annoying. I don't use any manual templates or manual midi mapping in Live so it doesn't bother me anymore but Ireported that about 3 or 4 years ago and had a few emails back and forth.

I'm happy with automap but that's because a few years ago I figured out what it's good for and exactly how to use it. There's so much confusion surrounding it, it's too bad. I used to use the Live automap mode but since getting the APC40, I don't need to use that part of it. I use it for VSTs and that's it. Not even Audiounits. The trick is to take all the automap VSTs that get created in your user VST folder and put them in your system VST folder. The benefits are enormous and it's mind boggling that Novation don't do this by default or at least document the benefits. When you do this, any VSTs for which you have made an automap version in past projects or device presets, will show up as automap version when loaded. Try it. Save a preset of a regular VST as an Ableton device rack or a Kore preset. No load it up. It will be the automap version. And for example if someone makes templates for Kore, you can load them up and they'll be using the automap version as well, just by having them in the same directory. And guess what else, if you delete the automap version, it will load up as the standard VST. So you could use the automap versions for everything and just to be safe, you could remove them from your project for gig if you didn't trust them or decide to stop using automap altogether and delete all automap stuff, and everything will always load fine in the future. No risks. Audio units not so. If you turn off the automap functionality, logic or live will not find the plug-in anymore. It sees it as a different plug-in.

All in all automap for VSTs is just awesome. In my experience the automap versions have been just as stable as the regular versions too. And the automap learning process is dead easy. Way better than standard midi. Great feeling keyboard as well. I wouldn't dream of using a different keyboard. It is too bad they took away the second screen though. For that reason I stick with the mkI for my SL61.
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condra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by condra » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:06 am

Automap is a headfuck :(

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:15 pm

condra wrote:Automap is a headfuck :(
I find it very straight forward. Click a little check mark beside the ones you want automapped in the plug-in manager. Then erase the mappings when you have a plug-in loaded and simply press learn, then click the parameter you want to learn and twiddle a knob or press a button. No mapping system could be easier.

Just out of curiosity, how is it fucking with your head?
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by AceLuby » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:50 pm

glitchrock-buddha wrote:
condra wrote:Automap is a headfuck :(
I find it very straight forward. Click a little check mark beside the ones you want automapped in the plug-in manager. Then erase the mappings when you have a plug-in loaded and simply press learn, then click the parameter you want to learn and twiddle a knob or press a button. No mapping system could be easier.

Just out of curiosity, how is it fucking with your head?
When I used automap it was not that simple at all, especially when automapping to Live. There were very few options.
levimoniz wrote:yes i'm a hypocrite and not intelligent

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:39 pm

AceLuby wrote:
glitchrock-buddha wrote:
condra wrote:Automap is a headfuck :(
I find it very straight forward. Click a little check mark beside the ones you want automapped in the plug-in manager. Then erase the mappings when you have a plug-in loaded and simply press learn, then click the parameter you want to learn and twiddle a knob or press a button. No mapping system could be easier.

Just out of curiosity, how is it fucking with your head?
When I used automap it was not that simple at all, especially when automapping to Live. There were very few options.
Oh so you're talking Ableton automap? (I prefer to call it instant mapping or control surface support for less confusion). When I say automap, I'm talking about Novation's automap universal, which is automap for plug-ins or other hosts that support it (Ableton doesn't). This is what I've always said, most confusion arises out of people confusing Ableton's own "automap", (which is simply control surface support and which needs to use the Ableton Live template) and automap universal. The whole reason I like the SL is automap universal. Learning control and making templates couldn't be easier really. You just hit a button and touch a control.

That being said, the Ableton control surface automap is also pretty simple but you can't do any of that parameter learning or custom templates. All you can do is change the order that parameters show up using device configuration.
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condra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by condra » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:51 pm

glitchrock-buddha wrote:Just out of curiosity, how is it fucking with your head?

......

Oh so you're talking Ableton automap?
The comment in the middle was not by me. I was talking about Automap and Novation stuff in general. I actually had an SL-37-Mk1 before, but I never bothered with Automap. This time, I'm determined to get my head around Automap, as well as all of the functions and capabilities of the SL. But I know it's gonna take a while....

To answer your question..

Automap is fucking with my head because:

For starters, there is Automap, Automap Pro, Automap Universal, and Abletons so called "Automap/auto-mapping"
Then there's Midi mode, Automap mode, Advanced mode, mixer mode, quick menu...etc etc etc
Also, the buttons on the side of the SLs, which do all sorts of different shit, depending on all sorts of different things.
Then theres the fact that you have a layer (Automap Server/Plugin Manager/HUD) in the middle, and ..."clients"....
Fator in "speed dial", touch sensitive knobs, lack of full control over native plug-ins, VST/AU plugins sometimes not working properly, one display for a ton of controls and the fact that you have to double up your VST folder....

Sorry, you might be used to it, but for the average person who is new to SL/Automap, its a complete mess.

The closest thing I've ever seen to a tightly integrated Synth plug-in and control surface seemingly came about by fluke/coincidence. Novation made a plug-in version of their K-Station, called V-Station. If you control V-Station with a K-Station just through midi, you have knob for knob accuracy, and it's a very exciting and powerful combination.

I think it's ridiculous that we have powerful synths such as the R3 and Mopho, that require computer editors to get the most out of. What I want is the complete OPPOSITE of that, ie a dedicated control surface that works with powerful software, in an elegant, intuitive way.

With this in mind, and considering the success of things like Maschine, I would really like to see Novation develop some plug-ins which are designed specifically to work with the SL series in an elegant, intuitive way, with GUI layouts that represent the layout of the SLs.
Last edited by condra on Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sporkles
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by sporkles » Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:56 pm

Automap is a great concept, it's just such a fricking shame that every time I want to launch Live, I have to first launch
Automap manually, make sure my Nocturn is actually detected, and, more often than not, exit Automap because the Nocturn is
unresponsive, unplug the Nocturn, plug it back in, and launch Automap. Then launch Live. At which point I've
forgotten what I was supposed to do in the first place.

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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by rikhyray » Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:18 pm

condra wrote:
For starters, there is Automap, Automap Pro, Automap Universal, and Abletons so called "Automap/auto-mapping"
Then there's Midi mode, Automap mode, Advanced mode, mixer mode, quick menu...etc etc etc
Also, the buttons on the side of the SLs, which do all sorts of different shit, depending on all sorts of different things.
Then theres the fact that you have a layer (Automap Server/Plugin Manager/HUD) in the middle, and ..."clients"....
Fator in "speed dial", touch sensitive knobs, lack of full control over native plug-ins, VST/AU plugins sometimes not working properly, one display for a ton of controls and the fact that you have to double up your VST folder....

Sorry, you might be used to it, but for the average person who is new to SL/Automap, its a complete mess.
Even though I did understand all those differences in the end gave up Automap ( that Universal one-whatever they currently call it). SL 37 (with Live auto template) and Launchpad combo work perfectly for me. I use the editor, with its instant update button, I can quickly make and test my own templates rather than Automap and scrolling through pages full of parameters I dont care to tweak.
Tried MK II but though those switches would be very helpful I find the 2 displays even more useful, maybe MK III will be better.

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:37 am

sporkles wrote:Automap is a great concept, it's just such a fricking shame that every time I want to launch Live, I have to first launch
Automap manually...
Maybe you should just turn on the setting to launch automap server automatically when a DAW starts. Works perfectly for me, I never think about it.
condra wrote: Automap is fucking with my head because:

For starters, there is Automap, Automap Pro, Automap Universal, and Abletons so called "Automap/auto-mapping"
Then there's Midi mode, Automap mode, Advanced mode, mixer mode, quick menu...etc etc etc
Also, the buttons on the side of the SLs, which do all sorts of different shit, depending on all sorts of different things.
Then theres the fact that you have a layer (Automap Server/Plugin Manager/HUD) in the middle, and ..."clients"....
Fator in "speed dial", touch sensitive knobs, lack of full control over native plug-ins, VST/AU plugins sometimes not working properly, one display for a ton of controls and the fact that you have to double up your VST folder....
Yep, you're definitely confusing some things, many of those are actually the same thing. I do see why the confusion, but let me drastically simplify this for you:

There are 2 modes: Automap Universal, and Advanced mode.

Automap Universal = automap for plug-ins and DAWs which support it. So while in automap mode, you can aither have it on plug-ins or mixer to use either plug-ins or DAW controls. Ableton does not support this, but plug-ins within Ableton of course do use this. This is the mode that uses the automap server.

Advanced mode = manual midi templates. These are templates you make the old fashioned way, in a midi editor and manually set midi cc's etc. The Ableton template is it's own template as well which is set up to control selected devices and mixer stuff via ableton's own control surface implementation. This mode doesn't use the automap server, it's just straight forward midi. Even the Ableton template.


I do understand how it can be confusing because Novation have changed the naming conventions a few times, and add that to the fact that people use the word automap to mean the ableton template and things get confusing fast. But just remember, it's only those two modes. Automap pro was just an upgrade that allowed a few extra things like multiple device support and qwerty key control etc.

Hope that helps.

grb
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gnapier
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by gnapier » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:56 am

So, um, I have three words.

M-Audio.
AxiomPro.
Hypercontrol.

At least it works a charm in LOGIC and REASON. Will try it tonight in LIVE.....
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