Automap - Kill me now!

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
thevariable
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by thevariable » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:16 am

I ordered a remote 49sl mkii last Friday. I hope I didn't make a mistake. SO far my experience has been a little shitty considering I ordered it last Friday morning and it still hasn't shipped. We'll see.

condra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by condra » Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:00 am

glitchrock-buddha wrote:
Yep, you're definitely confusing some things.............

Hope that helps.

grb
Hey man. Thanks a million for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. I'm starting to get my head around it (thanks to you, plus a couple of PDFs and YouTube vids). It just takes a bit of time and practice. I know it will be worth it in the end though. The sheer depth of control possibilities with any Novation SL product is immense.

The next thing I need to find is a good sounding VA which is basic enough that I can map and learn it with the SL. I'm thinking maybe Linplug Alpha.

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:00 pm

condra wrote:
glitchrock-buddha wrote:
Yep, you're definitely confusing some things.............

Hope that helps.

grb
Hey man. Thanks a million for taking the time to write such a detailed reply. I'm starting to get my head around it (thanks to you, plus a couple of PDFs and YouTube vids). It just takes a bit of time and practice. I know it will be worth it in the end though. The sheer depth of control possibilities with any Novation SL product is immense.

The next thing I need to find is a good sounding VA which is basic enough that I can map and learn it with the SL. I'm thinking maybe Linplug Alpha.
No problem. Glad I could help.
As for a good va to go with it, I've got a few that map really well to it. My favorite is probably poly-Ana. It just seems to fit the layout well. Also some others like sylenth1, oddity, imposcar and ace work well. I'm happy to share my templates for these. In fact if you search you'll find that I posted a bunch already, although the links are likely expired.

Cheers
Professional Shark Jumper.

condra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by condra » Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:25 pm

Getting places with Automap now.... kinda.. :|

I'm learning bits and pieces:


1
It seems that sometimes the "blue hand control" thing is better than bothering with Automap, like with plug-ins with only a small number of controls....
For "Uhbik-T" for example, I can "unfold device parameters" in Live (without even going into configure mode), then I have the names and values of all parameters layed out in front of me in columns of 4 rows. - easy then to know what knobs to use.

2
Configure Mode... Blue Hand.... Expand Device Parameters.... whatever-it's-called
Sometimes Live shows all parameters of a plugin
Sometimes Live shows none
Sometimes Live shows some...

I'm gonna try the options.txt thing mentioned here:
http://www.ableton.com/pages/faq/vst_an ... aq_12_link

3
Seemingly I cannot use Automap with Lives native inserts such as Operator.
I can however use Lives "automatic blue hand mapping thingy", to control the device with the top row of rotaries... though I cannot customize the layout of those controls as they appear on the SL!

4
I cannot use Automap on all plug-ins and all parameters.- for example, the "range" control in Minimoog V.

---------------

Anyway, I'm impressed by how much of Sylenth can be mapped, and considering it's one of my favourite synths, I might build my own Automap template for it.

Even without Automap, the SL is pretty badass. I think to get the most out of Automap, I'll have to find a handful of good plug-ins, that work well with Automap, then map and learn them.

condra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by condra » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:32 pm

condra wrote:I'm impressed by how much of Sylenth can be mapped, and considering it's one of my favourite synths, I might build my own Automap template for it.
V-Station maps pretty sweet too, and that is a sick-ass under-rated VA. :D yay Im having fun now

3phase
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by 3phase » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:36 am

i havent read the whole thread..what is the conclusion? anybody manged to use automap without major screw ups on a mac?

my impression was that you cant let this software on your cmputer without screwing everythig
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

condra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by condra » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:44 am

3phase wrote:i havent read the whole thread..what is the conclusion? anybody manged to use automap without major screw ups on a mac?

my impression was that you cant let this software on your cmputer without screwing everythig
Automap doesn't skrew anything at all really.
It's just hard to wrap your head around at first, (for some people, like myself).

It kinda "clicked" with me when I thought of it as a way of changing the layout of any VST, to match the layout of my controller, i.e at the touch of a button ("view/HUD") I can see my VST parameters layed out in a GUI that matches my knobs and sliders, as well as being mapped to them.

(though it's much deeper than just that. Automap is about the very nature of existence :lol: )

dj_blueprint
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by dj_blueprint » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:47 am

3phase wrote:i havent read the whole thread..what is the conclusion? anybody manged to use automap without major screw ups on a mac?

my impression was that you cant let this software on your cmputer without screwing everythig
I've used it for about three years just fine and now have the Pro version.

alex.the.forge
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by alex.the.forge » Sat Oct 02, 2010 11:52 am

glad to hear I'm not the only person who's found it bewildering. Admittedly I didn't persevere with it for too long because I was just trying to get a friends SL working and the launchpad I just bought is the only Novation kit I own to date, but I spent a weekend fucking around with my mate's controller and gave up on automap.

It turned out the specific problems he was having were related to USB power and when I plugged it in some problems went away and for what we were trying to do we only needed Ableton's remote mapping and instant mapping for the 8 macros. But for a while it really looked like it was Automap that was screwing everything up

So From what I gather here it's only worth bothering for 3rd party VSTs, is that right?

Personally I've got really used to the Ableton 8 macro thing and never liked trying to use my UC33 for VSTs because I just didn't want to try and remember where everything was, so I figured it would be the same with automap - I tend to just pick 8 parameters to control with hardware and use racks/macros and if I wanted to go deeper I'd just actually look at the device with the mouse/use automation in Live etc…

Of course I really would prefer Live had way more macros. If they did that I think I'd be fine with Live's own instant mapping.

But it's interesting to read some of your opinions because it makes me wonder if I should put some time into it….

Is anyone using it with the launchpad? and if so what for? Is it to configure the user modes for something like the maxforlive step sequencer?

Haven't delved too deep yet, only had the LP a couple of days and having enough fun just using it to launch clips and use the step sequencer

the launchpad and VCM600 is a killer combo with very little tweaking

fishmonkey
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by fishmonkey » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:57 pm

i've got my head around it now, but it is unintuitive for sure.

a big part of the potential confusion is that the Automap Server also has the flexibility to act like a generic MIDI device (with virtual MIDI ports).

they really could put some work into making the management of control maps and their associations with particular clients and plugins clearer and easier.

it crashes every now and again, but it certainly hasn't screwed my system...

condra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by condra » Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:19 pm

alex.the.forge wrote: Of course I really would prefer Live had way more macros. If they did that I think I'd be fine with Live's own instant mapping.

But it's interesting to read some of your opinions because it makes me wonder if I should put some time into it….
As I mentioned above, the SLs work pretty well with Lives blue hand. You get visual feedback on your controller for groups of 8 parameters. (works better with devices rather than racks IMO)
Is anyone using it with the launchpad? and if so what for? Is it to configure the user modes for something like the maxforlive step sequencer?

Haven't delved too deep yet, only had the LP a couple of days and having enough fun just using it to launch clips and use the step sequencer.
I have a Launchpad, only a few days too and it's great right out of the box. I also have a Remote SL MkII so I don't think I'll bother with Automap on the LP.

condra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by condra » Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:59 pm

GlitchRock if you're still around, I have another question. Hope you don't mind :oops:

I'm using Automap mode with VSTs, and Advanced Mode for racks, Lives mixer etc. (template 32)

Today I decided to set up a Live set template for DJ/performance. This would mean using the SL as a "generic" midi controller...
I can achieve that by removing the SL as a "named control surface" in Lives prefs.

However, I was hoping to be able to achieve this with templates on the SL itself, and this is where I've run into lots of problems, and perhaps bugs.

I can change template on the SL, and once I'm in a different template to Ableton (32), the automatic remote mapping appears to be off. That's great until I try to map something with Live - the SL then just goes back to the Ableton Template for no reason, my Launchpad flashes up, and Lives MIDI i/o indicator goes into spasm!

WTF!

I'd like to be able to load up a DJ set and get cracking without having to change Lives prefs. Hope this makes sense.

glitchrock-buddha
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by glitchrock-buddha » Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:51 pm

condra wrote:GlitchRock if you're still around, I have another question. Hope you don't mind :oops:

I'm using Automap mode with VSTs, and Advanced Mode for racks, Lives mixer etc. (template 32)

Today I decided to set up a Live set template for DJ/performance. This would mean using the SL as a "generic" midi controller...
I can achieve that by removing the SL as a "named control surface" in Lives prefs.

However, I was hoping to be able to achieve this with templates on the SL itself, and this is where I've run into lots of problems, and perhaps bugs.

I can change template on the SL, and once I'm in a different template to Ableton (32), the automatic remote mapping appears to be off. That's great until I try to map something with Live - the SL then just goes back to the Ableton Template for no reason, my Launchpad flashes up, and Lives MIDI i/o indicator goes into spasm!

WTF!

I'd like to be able to load up a DJ set and get cracking without having to change Lives prefs. Hope this makes sense.
This is indeed something annoying that has always been there. I've contacted Novation and Ableton and they never fixed it. I think it only happens when you have the SL listed under control surfaces. If you want to have that on and still use regular midi templates, unfortunately every time you take off midi learn, it will bounce back to the ableton control template. Stupid and annoying I know. The only thing you can do is try to do as many mappings at once as you can, rather than one at a time, because as soon as you disengage, it'll flip back to template 32 and you'll have to go back to the midi template you were on. Like I said, I never use manual midi tempaltes for learning parameters in Ableton, and I don't even use the ableton control surface template anymore since I have the APC40 and an ipad, I just use automap for plug-ins.

Sounds like you're starting to figure it out though.
condra wrote:I'm learning bits and pieces:
1
It seems that sometimes the "blue hand control" thing is better than bothering with Automap, like with plug-ins with only a small number of controls....
For "Uhbik-T" for example, I can "unfold device parameters" in Live (without even going into configure mode), then I have the names and values of all parameters layed out in front of me in columns of 4 rows. - easy then to know what knobs to use.
Yeah so the blue hand thing is ableton's control surface support, which works for most controllers. I like to use this withthe APC40 in addition to plug-in automap, to map out the most useful controls for quick access, whereas I'll map out everything (or as much as possible) on the SL automap template. I still prefer automap for even small plug-ins because I'd rather use the entire set of controls (16 knobs, 8 sliders) than have to scroll through banks of 8. And of course with automap you get to use buttons, which you don't with ableton control surface support (blue hand).
condra wrote: 2
Configure Mode... Blue Hand.... Expand Device Parameters.... whatever-it's-called
Sometimes Live shows all parameters of a plugin
Sometimes Live shows none
Sometimes Live shows some...

I'm gonna try the options.txt thing mentioned here:
http://www.ableton.com/pages/faq/vst_an ... aq_12_link
The live device will show the parameters is there are less than 128 for the plug-in. It will show none of there are more, so you have to add them as you want instead. This is because it can only allow 128 to be automatable and control surface support (instant mappings) only work with automatable parameters. I like this, it's much more organized (again, I use this with the APC40 or touchable though but same as Live's template on SL)
condra wrote: 3
Seemingly I cannot use Automap with Lives native inserts such as Operator.
I can however use Lives "automatic blue hand mapping thingy", to control the device with the top row of rotaries... though I cannot customize the layout of those controls as they appear on the SL!
Yes, this is two more mojar disadvantages of Live's native devices compared to VSTs. You can't use third party mapping like automap, and you also can't customize the order of the controls for Live's own instant mappings (which you can for VSTs)! Although you might be able to in the text configuration file, I'm not sure. But it's certainly not as easy as with VSTs.
condra wrote: 4
I cannot use Automap on all plug-ins and all parameters.- for example, the "range" control in Minimoog V.
Yes, the parameters that you can use for VSTs will depend on which ones the developer exposed to the host for automation. This is actually the same for novation automap and for Live's control surface instant mappings. If a parameter is visible to one, it's visible to the other. Both novation automap and ableton instant mappings rely on automatable controls. So yeah, some of the controls in the Arturia synths are not exposed, which is a bitch. I've pleaded with Arturia to expose those but they won't listen. The Arturia synths are only ones where I prefer regular midi templates.
condra wrote: Anyway, I'm impressed by how much of Sylenth can be mapped, and considering it's one of my favourite synths, I might build my own Automap template for it.

Even without Automap, the SL is pretty badass. I think to get the most out of Automap, I'll have to find a handful of good plug-ins, that work well with Automap, then map and learn them.
Yeah Sylenth1 is one of the good ones where absolutely every parameter is exposed. I made a pretty good template for it actually. I'll re-up soon. Poly-Ana, u-he plug-ins and GForce are other good ones. Spectrasonics ones are a little more tricky. You actually have to enable each control separately in the plug-in to expose it to the host before you can either map it to automap or device configuration for blue hand control.
Professional Shark Jumper.

condra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by condra » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:31 pm

Man thanks again for holding my hand through this. I feel like I've come out the other side now and I'm rockin.

I owe you one buddy.

Hopefully this thread will be useful for someone else at some point.

condra
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Re: Automap - Kill me now!

Post by condra » Sun Oct 03, 2010 1:26 am

glitchrock-buddha wrote: The only thing you can do is try to do as many mappings at once as you can, rather than one at a time, because as soon as you disengage, it'll flip back to template 32 and you'll have to go back to the midi template you were on.
.....OOH. I just realized I can still rock the generic midi stuff without having to go into Prefs.

Thats grand. I can live with having to change template every time I map something new. - I actually thought I couldn't actually USE the templates.

Its all good now. :D

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