being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
harvestein
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by harvestein » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:51 am

Personally I use ableton and turnatbles, i use ableton to play backing beats and mash up beats, and turntables to scratch/beat juggle.
People still expect to see decks. To the crowd, seeing you hunched over a laptop makes them think your doing what they do every night slouched in their chair with headphones on. Human Winamp, what actually is occuring on your screen is irrelevant.

Decks = DJ / Laptop = pressing play

That is the level of the general publics understanding, until that changes your stuck with it. All this talk of "feeling the crowd, changing the energy on the floor" etc etc, is just philosophical bullSh*t to most people.

Way i see it, when you ve been DJ'ing long enough Beat matching just becomes a pain in the ass rather than fun. But there are tricks on vinyl that you just cant do on a laptop and doesnt have the visual effect for the audience. Like beat juggling and scratching, where the live manipulation is very plain for all to see, unlike the back of a laptop case.

Playing to an audience is a mixture of entertainment and music production. If your just mixing two songs together, I think Ableton is overkill for what your doing, plus it doesnt look good atall. Like a singer miming, you lose credibility.

I love both ableton and vinyl though, thats why this 'Ableton serato bridge' malarky sounds great to me.
Last edited by harvestein on Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

nigel1
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by nigel1 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:54 am

In a "purist" sense your not...and you in no way will be able to justify it.
DJ'ing the art of que'ing up two records and beatmatching using a method of pitch control to sync said two records involves a
certain measure of risk. No two mixes can be the same due to this. Trainwrecks are part of the element of surprise.

If you use ableton to "perform" then this is one thing. I would respect that..but to step up on stage and say you dj with ableton is a slap in the face
of every dj who took great pride in their attained trade and skill. Dj's are already considered glorified jukeboxes by the general public. No need to further dilute, confirm and indirectly
insult the trade.

Dennis Ferrer
Objektivity Records

MajoDub
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by MajoDub » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:00 pm

we are in 2010 not in the 80s, also the laptop has a disk

but my final opinion is

+1 for the pee

simonlb
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by simonlb » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:19 pm

I've just never got into DJing using Live, I prefer vinyl even if there's less fancy features or possibilities. I love it for producing but couldn't see myself using it to DJ. I enjoy handing the vinyl, matching the beats, and just having the records.

Ableton DJing can definitely be impressive though - for example a DJ at the club I used to work at used it to play mainstream stuff and he did some great sounding mixes and tricks that just wouldn't have been possible with decks or CDs, with that sort of music there's a lot you can play with. And even in my own domain of techno and house there's some interesting layering and looping that can be done. Don't get me wrong, overuse of these things can sound shit, but it works when done well.

Horses for courses I guess. Seeing someone use vinyl is becoming more and more of a novelty these days, ironically.

wildcon
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by wildcon » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:20 pm

I've been DJ'ing + with Ableton for many years
and still get the not real DJ'ing comments.

I just laugh it off now :)

The 'beatmatch' element of DJ'ing whilst obviously a skill, is bourne out of necessity not choice.

Most punters judge you on the tunes you play and how you pace them within the set.

It's a mute arguement to be honest - come back in a few years and lets take another look.

With the hands on hardware integration with PadKontrol/APC/Launchpad etc the whole perspective will change in my view.
MacBook Pro, Mojave, Live 10, Logic Pro X, UAD Apollo & Satellites, UAD, NI Komplete, Izotope, Korg, Audio Damage, Fabfilter, Waves plugs.

nigel1
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by nigel1 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:55 pm

whilst I can agree that technology has afforded a new method and skill set of providing entertainment to the general public. Let's define it as what it is.
With Live you are performing a set...not dj'ing. What's the risk? A software bomb out? A hardware failure? Your own ineptitude of selecting the wrong warped timelocked loop? C'mon get real.
Proper tune selection is the main priority of course...so i'll give you that BUT the risk associated with pitch control and syncing is one of the main aspects of DJ culture. That's how this whole
thing was born. You take away that risk and you begin to ruffle feathers. That's why it took a long time to accept software dj'ing solutions. Once people figured out there was still some risk in addition to
having a multitude of advantages they lightened up. Still cheating (syncing automatically) is totally frowned upon and if you get caught hitting that sync button on youtube then...oh shit..you'll never hear the end of it.

So "we" don't have a problem with someone using Live to "perform". We have an issue when it's called something it's not. That's why the purist get their tits all tied up in a bunch. Granted at the
end of the night most people and the promoters only care if you rocked the spot or not but I feel someone shouldn't get insulted when called out in the open. It is what it is.
If anything they should readjust their thinking and say.."you know what? You're a dick but You're right...I'm not dj'ing i'm performing!." I've heard some amazing sets done with Live....no doubt.
My good friends at Innervisions(Henrik, Ame, Dixon et al) and Martin Buttrich blow my mind sometimes with what they pull off. So i'm not judging the use of it. I question the sole use of it and then
having the gall to misrepresent a skill set. Now if you're using it in combination with dj'ing/traktor/serato/vdj and say you use it as an additional source of inspiration during the night then I take my hat off to you. What's right is right...what's wrong is wrong. Some people like apples...and some oranges..but don't give me a peach and tell me it's a watermelon!

BTW
I'm an avid Live user...I'm in the middle of switching DAWs cuz i'm so into it. I love it and i'm the first one to advocate it's use in production and the performance aspect of it.

Dennis Ferrer
Objektivity

ChiDJ
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by ChiDJ » Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:50 pm

You are not a DJ.

You are a Performer.

If you can't beatmatch, you will never understand.

Tod
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Trypset
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by Trypset » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:02 pm

ChiDJ wrote:You are not a DJ.

You are a Performer.

If you can't beatmatch, you will never understand.

Tod
cyber 5. Let me reitterate the point about not just being able to beatmatch, but being able to beatmatch in a loud as hell environment with crappy to no monitors, now that is stressful. I hate watching someone perform a set with no headphones even plugged in.
TrypseT
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Donnie
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by Donnie » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:34 pm

After being a vinyl purist for years I can happily laugh in the face of anyone who makes a comment like that. If they want a sample of my vinyl mixing they can check out a past mix. Honestly, since I can beatmatch a tune in a matter of seconds, that whole aspect is irrelevant to me. Its pretty irrelevent to the crowd too since they are more likely to respond to track selection and crap like backspins lol. The majority dont even know the difference between a rock solid cut and a mediocre cut. Thats much of the reason why I gave vinyl/cd djing up, becasue your skills as a dj take a back seat to pretty much every other aspect of djing (unless your focus is turntablism.)

To be honest though just playing tracks with Ableton is pretty boring unless you are messing with it in some way beyond simple djing. Plus there is less visual appeal than vinyl...you cant cue up your tune 10 times, twist common eq knobs, and stuff like that to look busy. Playing on your midi controller isnt as obvious. Using ableton to simply mix whole tunes will garnish much less respect than if you use Abletons resources to take it a step or two further. A little bit can go a long way.

Angstrom
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by Angstrom » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:57 pm

Pitch Black wrote:You think thats bad? how about spending oooh, 20 years learning music, learning to engineer and produce, developing performance skills and techniques, writing my own tunes, then trucking out 100kg of equipment to gigs to play a 100% original set of live electronica... and some punter comes up afterward to compliment me on my "DJ styles".
have you ever had a request?

As the last time I played to "that sort" of crowd was a long time ago, the exchange went like this:

Dude: "hey man, great gig"
Me: "I'm fucking playing here man"
Dude: "yeah, have you got Children by Robert whatsit"
Me :" you fuckin' what? WHAT? See these fingers, hear that bassline? these fingers are playing that bassline, and it's hard, so go away"
Dude: "Children by Robert Miles, yeah play that man"
Me : " I kill you"


I no longer have any particular interest in dance clubs and dance music, so fortunately I don't have to face this fuckery any more.

Trypset
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by Trypset » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:11 pm

Children.....oh my. Good thing you didn't have a gun.
TrypseT
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90's child
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by 90's child » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:17 pm

selecting 2 hours worth of music and putting it in the right order is much more important than being able to count to 4.

simonlb
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by simonlb » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:39 pm

90's child wrote:selecting 2 hours worth of music and putting it in the right order is much more important than being able to count to 4.
Agreed, beatmatching isn't the be all and end all of DJing.

Paradigm X
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by Paradigm X » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:44 pm

Surgeon.


End of story.

:)
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Salty P
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Re: being accused of not being a "real DJ" with Ableton

Post by Salty P » Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:47 pm

Trypset wrote:Children.....oh my. Good thing you didn't have a gun.
You've got a remix of this in your last set :lol:

Who gives a flying fuck? Haters are always gonna hate no matter what you're playing. If you're just using Live to do basic intro/outro drops then you're probably right to get a bit depressed when someone calls you a fake (truth always cuts deep :D ).

If you know you're putting in the effort and the crowd love it, then who gives a shit if some little fuck-weasel shoots his mouth off? Focus on the people in the room sending the love!


And I don't know why, but I've always has more shit from people who use CDJ's than vinyl :?

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