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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:59 am 

Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:53 am
Posts: 61
Location: Ibiza
Hello,

I have been reading all this your posts about controlling Live with Maschine.
Im ready to buy a controller for Live ...obviously Im thinking on APC40.
But after reading all you say about Maschine and LIve integration...I dont know what to think.
The work I do is live performing, looping (bass, guitars, vocals) on live, send and returns from KP3 trough Mackie mixer....I need easy access to live, change channels, FX enable/disable, record enable, move parameters in M4L fx,....APC40 offers this...I admit is an ugly controller, but, it runs ok for my needs.
BUT:
Some of you reccomends to me Maschine instead APC40??
Can you full-mapping Live on maschine?..or at least, at APC level?

Thanks to you for your help.

Saludos!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:16 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 pm
Posts: 7853
Location: A Big Toilet Called Berlin
esteban2010 wrote:
Hello,

I have been reading all this your posts about controlling Live with Maschine.
Im ready to buy a controller for Live ...obviously Im thinking on APC40.
But after reading all you say about Maschine and LIve integration...I dont know what to think.
The work I do is live performing, looping (bass, guitars, vocals) on live, send and returns from KP3 trough Mackie mixer....I need easy access to live, change channels, FX enable/disable, record enable, move parameters in M4L fx,....APC40 offers this...I admit is an ugly controller, but, it runs ok for my needs.
BUT:
Some of you reccomends to me Maschine instead APC40??
Can you full-mapping Live on maschine?..or at least, at APC level?

Thanks to you for your help.

Saludos!!!!


well, i never owned an apc40, i only played around with it several times... same as with the launchpad, and the only real big difference i can see is that you have more access to clip launch buttons in one layer and that you have a little better visual feedback within live itself (the frame telling you where you are at) also some prefer faders to knobs for volume, i prefer knobs over a fader always, also when using a DJ mixer i like the oldskool house mixers which still had rotaries.

it depends a bit on your needs, the apc40 or launchpad are highly specialised and customised for live... the striking thing with maschine is, that it is a true all in one instrument AND a near perfect (in some instances like traktor, even perfect) controller for ANY other existing software out there...
if you use more then live exclusively it is a no brainer... maschine is as good for live as it is for PT, or cubase or reason or blah, blah... anything that can be controlled via midi, even vj video programs... it can send except on the knob page buttons (two of them) and the shift button on any other button or knob any type of midi message, CC, notes, MCU etc. any type with full visual feedback and you can even switch buttons off which then don't illuminate at all!

if you use really only live and nothing else... then i guess the apc40 is better, but it is a ridiculous size (i think) and needs a PSU, which is for live use for me a 100% no go, no matter how good the unit otherwise is, i would never ever buy something that needs a psu, other then the computer... even if it would shit gold. (that is a very personal thing, though... )

if you want in all in one instrument and controller for everything you possibly can have in your computer as a software, then maschine is beyond perfect. and well, bus powered :mrgreen:

maschine itself is already something worth it alone and a TRUE live performance tool (that is where lately live lost me a little bit) that let's you operate and jam 100% 'computer touch' free.

for me the choice is clear, i have one backpack and can do anything and everything with one unit and a computer anywhere.

jeez, maschine has mackie control, helloooo!!??!!??!!

and check youtube there are hundreds of good videos, there are in the meantime many geeks who created templates / ableton scripts that feed nearly any kind of workflow. and if not, the editor is powerful and if you know how to create user remote scripts for live, then it's nearly without boundaries what you can do... i only wait for the geeks to come up with m4l devices for maschine... :wink: like MU for the lemur, he he.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:54 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Switzerland
not to question your love for machine subfunk, but what is with that high desire to be "100% 'computer touch' free"? i never get that. maybe i'm too geeky to think it's something bad. i use all of the functions of my laptop when on stage. mousepad (mousestick actually), keyboard, and screen.

it's ridiculous to have a 2000+$ device just to "put it away".

that would be just like yeah, i have a lemur on stage, but i don't want to look at it, nor touch it. wtf?

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:09 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 pm
Posts: 7853
Location: A Big Toilet Called Berlin
davepermen wrote:
not to question your love for machine subfunk, but what is with that high desire to be "100% 'computer touch' free"? i never get that. maybe i'm too geeky to think it's something bad. i use all of the functions of my laptop when on stage. mousepad (mousestick actually), keyboard, and screen.

it's ridiculous to have a 2000+$ device just to "put it away".

that would be just like yeah, i have a lemur on stage, but i don't want to look at it, nor touch it. wtf?


nope lemur is not maschine, stop once and forever trying to comparing it with anything else... it is unique, totally and utterly unique, period!
again no point in using words, play with it for a few hours and you will know/discover what i mean.

i basically hate computers, as much as i love them for what they allow me to do... but as soon as i can forget using one (hence why i am a mac user and lover, can't be arsed fiddling with computer shit, i want to create and produce and mix music or do other audio work, that is all i care about), i am happy, i get to much into all that bad shit that digital technology brings with it, like number readings of 2.3658439 blah etc. for the right setting, hardware let's me concentrate on the ears and sound and music instead of staring at a screen working 'by numbers' don't get me wrong it's a real love / hate relationship, i love the fact of being able to save any setting and don't need to make track sheets anymore or take pics, with a polaroid, like in the old days... and all the other advantages of computers i love, but i also hate them and that screen staring, especially when i perform or DJ, i love that i can use the power of the comp and advantages not breaking my old back anymore carrying tons of stuff around, but i also like to jam with attention to the crowd and being able o look into peoples eyes and connect, instead of staring the whole time at a screen like a geeky e-mail checker and maschine simply gives the perfect combination of those two...

that is all there is to it.

i have simply more fun with it as a hardware unit and it does ultimately affects the music and groove 'n soul not using the mouse.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:13 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Switzerland
a laptop is just hardware.

i haven't compared the lemur with your loving machine.

a laptop has buttons (and more inputs), and a screen for information. just as the lemur, just as your machine.

treating a laptop differently is the main reason you got your "live isn't that close for live performance for me anymore". for me, the laptop is just another device. like the mixer, like the cd player, like the turntable, like machine, like any midi controller, like any real analogue synth, like lemur.

but well, as you hate computers, it makes sense to not want to touch one :) i don't hate mines, and thus want to use them the best way they can be used: by touching them, by looking at them.


and i never said anything bad about your beloved machine. i just question all that "never touch the laptop" issues. which, to me, are quite ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:15 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 pm
Posts: 7853
Location: A Big Toilet Called Berlin
davepermen wrote:
it's ridiculous to have a 2000+$ device just to "put it away".


no it's not at all, a computer is just the engine, you don't show your porsche motor behind a glass hood, unless you are a full on proletarian.

it is a 2000 dollar high tech engine only there to enhance and translate my ideas. nothing more and nothing less. not a show off item, well again unless you need a penis enlarger on stage.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:17 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Switzerland
SubFunk wrote:
davepermen wrote:
it's ridiculous to have a 2000+$ device just to "put it away".


no it's not at all, a computer is just the engine, you don't show your porsche motor behind a glass hood, unless you are a full on proletarian.

it is a 2000 dollar high tech engine only there to enhance and translate my ideas. nothing more and nothing less. not a show off item, well again unless you need a penis enlarger on stage.


i don't have a mac on stage, so no, i don't need penis enlargement.

you still don't get what i say. live runs on a laptop. and you have a laptop. you have it right there. and you can put that to good use. which is what i do. instead of saying "don't want to touch that box with buttons, i want to touch that other box with buttons instead".

it's just different boxes. audio comes out of one or more than one of them, and in the end, nobody cares. but having a 2000$ device that can perfectly well be used to play live stuff on it, and NOT USING IT OUT OF DISLIKE is a waste of potential.


(machine is a computer, too, so is the lemur.. so are a lot of other devices by now. it's a bit of software, some output display, some input interfaces, and a processor crunching trough it).

(oh, and you might know that i love native instruments hw and sw, so i guess i'd like machine, too.. if i'd find some use for it, and had actual money to spend)

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Last edited by davepermen on Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:19 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 pm
Posts: 7853
Location: A Big Toilet Called Berlin
davepermen wrote:
and i never said anything bad about your beloved machine. i just question all that "never touch the laptop" issues. which, to me, are quite ridiculous.


fair enough, i don't feel offended at all, i just like especially live to connect visually to the crowd and not with my computer, and devices like an apc40, maschine, padK, launchpad, lemur etc. do allow that to a much, much greater extend then the computer itself.

that is really all there is to it.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:22 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Switzerland
SubFunk wrote:
davepermen wrote:
and i never said anything bad about your beloved machine. i just question all that "never touch the laptop" issues. which, to me, are quite ridiculous.


fair enough, i don't feel offended at all, i just like especially live to connect visually to the crowd and not with my computer, and devices like an apc40, maschine, padK, launchpad, lemur etc. do allow that to a much, much greater extend then the computer itself.

that is really all there is to it.


for me, the visual connection is about "putting everything i have on stage to use". which is why i use the existing dj mixer instead of live's internal mixer (which i optionally have in, just in case the external one is one i don't like to use), and anything else on stage. and that includes the laptop. it forces me to move around more, which forces me to be more active.

the only things not really put to use are the cdjs.. they only load a fallback cd for the case of some crash or something. which so far thankfully haven't happened.

maybe next year i have some money to spend on something like the machine. then i will sure try it for a prolonged period to enjoy it.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:24 am 

Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:34 am
Posts: 395
Location: London
i dunno man.... i tend to aggree with the whole not looking at the computer much mentality... yeah, it's an expensive laptop, but it is there because it's stable and runs whatever i'm using... apart from that i cannot think of anything less inspiring (for me) than staring at a screen when performing... the less i look at it, the more i can let go, and worry about the flow and not about what i have on screen.... but i do come from a dj background before producing so that might be the reason why...who knows?

i will start checking all the maschine videos on youtube since i also carry everything in my backpack... laptop, soundcard, launchpad... for some gigs i carry the mpd24 as well.... i want to avoid having to carry both of them.

My only concern is the lack of visual feedback between live and the maschine, since i only use live

with the launch pad/apc is easy not to get lost in all that because of the red sqare, i want to see how can i work like that without that feedback... or maybe i just need to change the way i work if i do get one...

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:25 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 pm
Posts: 7853
Location: A Big Toilet Called Berlin
davepermen wrote:
SubFunk wrote:
davepermen wrote:
it's ridiculous to have a 2000+$ device just to "put it away".


no it's not at all, a computer is just the engine, you don't show your porsche motor behind a glass hood, unless you are a full on proletarian.

it is a 2000 dollar high tech engine only there to enhance and translate my ideas. nothing more and nothing less. not a show off item, well again unless you need a penis enlarger on stage.


i don't have a mac on stage, so no, i don't need penis enlargement.

you still don't get what i say. live runs on a laptop. and you have a laptop. you have it right there. and you can put that to good use. which is what i do. instead of saying "don't want to touch that box with buttons, i want to touch that other box with buttons instead".

it's just different boxes. audio comes out of one or more than one of them, and in the end, nobody cares. but having a 2000$ device that can perfectly well be used to play live stuff on it, and NOT USING IT OUT OF DISLIKE is a waste of potential.


(machine is a computer, too, so is the lemur.. so are a lot of other devices by now. it's a bit of software, some output display, some input interfaces, and a processor crunching trough it).

(oh, and you might know that i love native instruments hw and sw, so i guess i'd like machine, too.. if i'd find some use for it, and had actual money to spend)


well i used a laptop without controllers for long enough... thinking the same way you do, experience on stage (over 20years) showed me differently, why did monolake made the monodeck? and then ableton the apc40, etc. lemur, there is a reason for it, this development is coming from users / performers... not from companies that just need a new product, it is a psychology issue as much as a 'workflow' and different way of creation issue what input devices you use. you are young my friend.

even at home, using a keyboard and a PadKontroller is a total different outcome on music then a mouse and programming, it's playing.

but to each his own. simple.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:29 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Switzerland
i never say anything against that. i just say adding the laptop as a performance device is a gain, not a loss :) i don't remove my additional devices. but i don't remove the laptop from the list of devices i use just as well.

and the 20 years of stage knowledge has for quite a few lead to stagnation, and a blockade of their once open mind. not to say that fits to you, but when ever i hear that, i have some cold shiver down my back, just hoping it's not his argument, but just some hint on where his argument is from.

i can't wait to one day 'see the light', on how doing the same i do now on a maschine is so much better.. i once saw this light with traktor, and people laughed at me for a long time (and now most using it, too.. :))

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:31 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 pm
Posts: 7853
Location: A Big Toilet Called Berlin
davepermen wrote:
i once saw this light with traktor, and people laughed at me for a long time (and now most using it, too.. :))


so who is conservative here? you or me? LOL

you speak in the past, not me. :mrgreen:

i also started with live and traktor long before most other people around me... and now maschine... :mrgreen: , i am certainly consider myself progressive, most people still need in rounds rotating bits for traktor, ridiculous (i think!), but well having the choice between looking at a screen or into a human eye, it's clear what i prefer.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:35 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Switzerland
SubFunk wrote:
davepermen wrote:
i once saw this light with traktor, and people laughed at me for a long time (and now most using it, too.. :))


so who is conservative here? you or me? LOL

you speak in the past, not me. :mrgreen:


i wasn't the past then, i am not now. if i would have money to spend, machine would be a non-discussion. i just made the example that i like to try new stuff, and i like to accept changing my mind if something new actually is good.

i just so far have not seen any use for myself for machine + i can not financially find a reason for it as well. for traktor, finances where a non-issue at least. traktor + 70 songs == cheaper than vinyl => i knew there's a tipping point where i actually gain from it. for machine, there is no such point sadly..

i'd need to have some big gigs that pay off.. and now don't tell me i don't get them BECAUSE I USE THE LAPTOP ON STAGE hehehe :)

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 11:37 am 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Switzerland
SubFunk wrote:
but well having the choice between looking at a screen or into a human eye, it's clear what i prefer.

i'm not so sure in this case :) but seriously.. the screen is optional :) but it's there when you can gain from it.

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