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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:45 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Posts: 6228
every 6 months I have to agree with tone deft it's in my ableton Live contract. there is definitely a difference latency wise between the mpc and maschine, I can feel it, that said maschine is amazing and any tea partyer will have to pry it from my cold dead hands.f

whats with all this I don't sample, use samples/chop samples or whatever but I use single hits talk, aren't those single hits you use from a sample library :) , if you don't sample what do you think you're doing with live one of the greatest software samplers if not thee greatest.

fuck this will make agreeing with tone deft twice in one day dangnamett, maschine is wonderful but reaching into your bag and pulling out a drumsampler that doesn't need to be hooked up to a computer, plugging in some headphones and just start banging away is an experience that always has been and always will be in a class of it's own, there are little upgrades coming in the future that will make maschine even more wonderful than it is today but the number one request
for maschine will always be a wish to be able to use it without the computer and then hook up to the computer when you want, and if ni ever pull that off they will be able to sell maschine for twice as much and to people who already have a maschine version 1.

I used to compare maschine and the mpc but as much as I'd like to continue they're really not comparable and they don't feel the same to me at all so I don't really agree with the cats who say that (imho) I love the way the mpc feels and i can slice samples on it way faster than
on a computer, 2000xl and older is another story , they are slow, but I use the 1000 and 2500 and there is no contest, there is no audio editor that is faster imho.
when I use maschine it's not that I feel like I'm not using a computer, it just takes that annoying feeling of using a computer away and makes the computer feel much more like an instrument just like ableton has made using a softsampler and sequencer feel more like an instrument, maschine has gon far beyond that.

I wouldn't trade/give up either of them ever.
a feature that I love simoult function is that when you hit one pad on the mpc it triggers another pad at the same time makes for some very creative music making and this is just one of many many features that maschine doesn't have at least without a more difficult setup, also playing mutes on the mpc is better right now.

maschine though is a sound designers wet dream with in a wet dream within a wet dream, it's that ill, if you make sample libraries or do any sort of sound design you need maschine, it's so easy to apply mix and trick out the effex, resampling is at an all time new level of ease and creatively accessable on maschine as well, you can tell maschine to resample from anywhere, something you can do in Live too and as well on the mpc but not like on maschine, maschine is dope as fuck. which brings me to the only other thing to consider which is whats the best combo in hardware and software, maschine and ableton live. making your beats with maschine and finishing them off with ableton has got to be the best marriage in software bar none, the apc sucks ass in comparison

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Posts: 6228
oh shit I forgot to say the mpc pawns maschine at running other hardware
too but......so what!

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:50 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 pm
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Location: A Big Toilet Called Berlin
starving student wrote:
maschine is dope as fuck. which brings me to the only other thing to consider which is whats the best combo in hardware and software, maschine and ableton live. making your beats with maschine and finishing them off with ableton has got to be the best marriage in software bar none, the apc sucks ass in comparison


i could not agree more!

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:55 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23575
Location: SF, CA
I feel dirty, I'm going to go have a cry in the shower.

have you ever used an APC?



the MPC's OS and methods compared to Maschine... Maschine has to be way easier to use but a fiend will learn and master whatever they want. crazy good music has been on both boxes.

with the MPC I can play real time drums at a low sample rate/low CPU usage. :D if they added a hard drive or a few minutes of RAM to the Maschine. 8O

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I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:04 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 pm
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Location: A Big Toilet Called Berlin
Tone Deft wrote:
if they added a hard drive or a few minutes of RAM to the Maschine. 8O


well i am not even sure i would like that... this way it stays simple, rugged and indestructible (ok ram would be OK but a drive is fragile again and it's to early for small cheap SSDs and it would raise the need of a PSU which is a NO go!!! god please never ever a damn PSU for a device needed on stage with a computer)

the point is not just being an awesome instrument but also an awesome overall controller for any other existing software...

i think it is exactly the plus that it is kept simple and reduced to the bare minimum that makes sense and ensures fun and reliability, no nonsense attached.

and i hope that stays for the software like that as well, please no overload! i personally hope!

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:08 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Switzerland
SubFunk wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
if they added a hard drive or a few minutes of RAM to the Maschine. 8O

well i am not even sure i would like that... this way it stays simple, rugged and indestructible (ok ram would be OK but a drive is fragile again and it's to early for small cheap SSDs)

20$ for a 4gb 'ssd' would not be too much for a 500-700$ device..

(it's called usb stick :))

(actually, an sd card slot could be perfect.. :))

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Posts: 6228
Tone Deft wrote:
I feel dirty, I'm going to go have a cry in the shower.

have you ever used an APC?



the MPC's OS and methods compared to Maschine... Maschine has to be way easier to use but a fiend will learn and master whatever they want. crazy good music has been on both boxes.

with the MPC I can play real time drums at a low sample rate/low CPU usage. :D if they added a hard drive or a few minutes of RAM to the Maschine. 8O



:lol: yeah I don't know what people are thinkin, but you know alot of them probably draw in their beats or step them in and thats cool but like to play mine in too.

gotta be honest I haven't spent enough time with the apc, I had one for
a few days and I didn't like it, granted that was not enough time I wasn't crazy about the formfactor of it either, but to be fair it's really different than maschine too so maybe not a good idea to compare, you eluded to as much a long time ago i think......shoulda listened hah!

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23575
Location: SF, CA
totally agreed on simple beauty.

BUT that damn latency. someday (soon?!?!?) it won't be an issue, computers and interfaces will get faster, IMO this is the main area that we're still in the dark ages of DAWs. basic sound quality isn't an issue, latency is.

I don't know the Maschine workflow, but what if you had a drum set you were playing, you hit a button, wait 10 seconds and now that drum set is loaded locally and there's near zero latency. that would also take some load off the computer.


btw what's the basic CPU hit running the Maschine software?


not being a hater, just kicking the tires and giving a shout out to near zero latency hardware. I got totally fed up with changing sample rates to balance playing feel and CPU load.

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I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:14 pm 

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:13 pm
Posts: 6228
davepermen wrote:
SubFunk wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
if they added a hard drive or a few minutes of RAM to the Maschine. 8O

well i am not even sure i would like that... this way it stays simple, rugged and indestructible (ok ram would be OK but a drive is fragile again and it's to early for small cheap SSDs)

20$ for a 4gb 'ssd' would not be too much for a 500-700$ device..

(it's called usb stick :))

(actually, an sd card slot could be perfect.. :))


gotta agree with tone and dave on this one though, my mpc 1000 is wonderfully full with a 120gig hard drive full of munchies and if maschine hand any type of storage and was able to work with out the lappy it wouldn't change the ability to use it as you do now to control other apps and everything, only diff would be that you could use it on its own, can't see how that would be a minus, and it's so light that it would add to much to the weight either. but thats just me opining

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 pm
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Location: A Big Toilet Called Berlin
Tone Deft wrote:
basic sound quality isn't an issue, latency is.


i don't know, i never ever had a single issue with latency of any sorts, not in my whole life... i actually don't even realise that it exists.

everything that runs at 256 or beyond is not even existing in my book and that is a lame standard any half decent computer and card runs on our days...

seriously i am reminded of latency when i read about it. not when i make music or record.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:18 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23575
Location: SF, CA
starving student wrote:
Tone Deft wrote:
I feel dirty, I'm going to go have a cry in the shower.

have you ever used an APC?



the MPC's OS and methods compared to Maschine... Maschine has to be way easier to use but a fiend will learn and master whatever they want. crazy good music has been on both boxes.

with the MPC I can play real time drums at a low sample rate/low CPU usage. :D if they added a hard drive or a few minutes of RAM to the Maschine. 8O



:lol: yeah I don't know what people are thinkin, but you know alot of them probably draw in their beats or step them in and thats cool but like to play mine in too.

gotta be honest I haven't spent enough time with the apc, I had one for
a few days and I didn't like it, granted that was not enough time I wasn't crazy about the formfactor of it either, but to be fair it's really different than maschine too so maybe not a good idea to compare, you eluded to as much a long time ago i think......shoulda listened hah!

IMO you're thinking about it wrong. any pad set without velocity sensitivity shouldn't be considered a drum pad. I've played beats on my LP and APC but that's not their primary use, IMO. natural velocity variation in drum lines is crucial.

look at my studio setup, APC is on my right for CONTROL over the Live set. I walk over to the MPC to play drums. the LP sits in my lap and wiggles. :mrgreen:

viewtopic.php?p=1117295#p1117295

edit more agreeing?? what's this forum coming to?!?!?!?! :P


Sub Funk - for real??? try playing drums or midi guitar with 50mS of latency. or try having a LARGE set with a 192kHz sample rate and small buffer. I'm amazed, it really underlines how differently we all work with Live.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:21 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
Posts: 2196
Location: Switzerland
i wrote a detailed post about how latency can't improve much, but it got lost :(

in short, to reduce latency to half, every part of your systems has to run at twice it's speed. that means from f.e. 2.5ghz to 5ghz on the cpu. to reduce latency to one tenth, you'd have to go to 25ghz.

industry settled years ago to below the 4ghz barrier for technical reasons. until graphene chips, this won't change. but then, we'd go to 20ghz and maybe even 100ghz. then, latency should finally never be an issue again :)

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:24 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:41 pm
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Location: A Big Toilet Called Berlin
how the hell you guys manage 50ms latency that is a mystery to me!!!!

how do you get any high latencies with modern computers and sound cards???

i did recorded many guitarists and they require anything under 6ms but that is so easy to accomplish with modern systems, what is the deal?

i guess you all have those monster setups, routings and good knows how many plugins to come to the sound i use 95% less complication for coming to the same result?

seriously it will always be a mystery to me.

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:29 pm 

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 pm
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Location: Switzerland
indeed.. worst i had to setup on windows is 32ms latency. and from what i know on osx the usb latency is much lower due to the architecture. based on this, the worst settings on osx i would have is 16ms. and most likely more around 8ms.

NI are quite good at low latency stuff actually (they have to, given traktor scratch and such environments).

50ms sounds strange.

but we indeed have all different setups in here :)

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 Post subject: Re: @ Tarekith [maschine&live]
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:30 pm 

Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:29 am
Posts: 4369
Location: The Ableton Live Forum
Tone Deft wrote:
btw what's the basic CPU hit running the Maschine software?

Approximately the same as the basic cpu hit running Ableton Live software.


:wink:


And on the topic of the MPC comparisons, i think it's an unnecessary one. Maschine is not to be compared to a standalone groovebox, it's to be compared to something like a trigger finger or akai MPD32, or more accurately, one of those along side software like guru/battery/RMV.

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Last edited by glitchrock-buddha on Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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