8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
JuanSOLO
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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by JuanSOLO » Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:50 pm

So far so good

Aviator
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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by Aviator » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:05 pm

Everything here working so far - My EQ packs, VSTs & DJ Templates all good :)

3phase
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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by 3phase » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:49 am

Dennis DeSantis wrote: For updates that are primarily just bugfixes, we felt that changelogs were actually more confusing than helpful. The only way to know if your specific problem is fixed is to duplicate your exact use case and see if the behavior has changed.

Best,

thats actually quite funny in a way.. just dont understand why that should be confusing..

except there are fixes in the audio engine..which of cause allways worked perfect on all systems ...
And any possible error plays in an absolutly unhearable range...
But anything pointing in that direction would resurrect all the shitty soundquality discussions again..

Beside that ..what could cause confusion?
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hoffman2k
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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by hoffman2k » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:01 am

3phase wrote:
Dennis DeSantis wrote: For updates that are primarily just bugfixes, we felt that changelogs were actually more confusing than helpful. The only way to know if your specific problem is fixed is to duplicate your exact use case and see if the behavior has changed.

Best,

thats actually quite funny in a way.. just dont understand why that should be confusing..

except there are fixes in the audio engine..which of cause allways worked perfect on all systems ...
And any possible error plays in an absolutly unhearable range...
But anything pointing in that direction would resurrect all the shitty soundquality discussions again..

Beside that ..what could cause confusion?
The changelogs vanished after somebody thought it would be a good idea to put them all into a big list without any context. Well at least it proved they're listening. But the reception isn't quite clear :D

dum
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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by dum » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:06 am

without any context ?
Do elaborate.

What context could possibly be missing ? ... maybe the coders had a bad flu for a few months ? marital problems at home ? faeries squatting in their office tampering with code at night ? that kind of thing ?
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by hoffman2k » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:34 am

dum wrote:without any context ?
Do elaborate.

What context could possibly be missing ? ... maybe the coders had a bad flu for a few months ? marital problems at home ? faeries squatting in their office tampering with code at night ? that kind of thing ?
Nah, beginning with the fact that some of those lines in the changelog hardly qualify as a valid sentence. That is Ableton's fault. Then the list posted was since 8.0.1 I think, containing bugs that were fixed and reintroduced.
The only useful bits were the numbers which referred to a thread where it was reported. But not all bugs were reported in threads.
Some fixes listed were even for stuff they uncovered in automated tests. Which totally lacked any context or even proper sentences.

I'm all in favor of having a changelog. Some of the juiciest info always came from the improvements list. But if by Ableton's own admission the changelogs don't make any sense, it should encourage them to give us a proper one.
It doesn't have to be much more than they did before, but somebody should definitely proofread it. If there's a sentence like "Live crashed while triggering clip" with no more info.. Ehrm I can see the blood drain from some peoples faces. It must take less energy to make one than answering why there isn't a changelog every release.

A confusing list or no list shouldn't be the only 2 choices. Your reply will be a collective reply once that newsletter hits. "8.1.3 contains many fixes and improvements"... Err.. Do elaborate!

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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by 3phase » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:41 am

hoffman2k wrote:
The changelogs vanished after somebody thought it would be a good idea to put them all into a big list without any context. Well at least it proved they're listening. But the reception isn't quite clear :D

you talking about that list somebody compiled from a vew updates?

ok..it was very very long.. but so what? are there still people that think L8 has no problems?


It looked all the time that certain bugs or problems in general was related to certain hardware configs.. i just found never any hint to that scenario in the change logs..so either they wasnt really accurate about that..or many bugs just stay unrealized by the majority of the users but all have them...

I dont think that people that dont have problems read changelogs anyway..
If Ableton dont wnats them public they might offer to send them on request..
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

dum
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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by dum » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:47 am

a change/improvement is a change/improvement.
it hardly matters to me (or anyone really) if it was discovered by accident, by a forum post, bug report via email or by a vietnamese refugee chained to a computer in the ableton HQ attic.
That's not missing context. that's irrelevant.

it doesn't matter to me if a bug was erased in one version and re-introduced in another - but I definitely want to know if it's there or not before committing my time. Again, not seeing how this is a lack of context in any meaningful way.

the, and I quote, 'confusion & terror' being associated with the changelogs by ableton staff is total bluster. The only confusion associated with the changelog is why it isn't being published anymore.

does the term 'whitewash' exist in german ?
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by hoffman2k » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:52 am

dum wrote:a change/improvement is a change/improvement.
it hardly matters to me (or anyone really) if it was discovered by accident, by a forum post, bug report via email or by a vietnamese refugee chained to a computer in the ableton HQ attic.
That's not missing context. that's irrelevant.

it doesn't matter to me if a bug was erased in one version and re-introduced in another - but I definitely want to know if it's there or not before committing my time. Again, not seeing how this is a lack of context in any meaningful way.

the, and I quote, 'confusion & terror' being associated with the changelogs by ableton staff is total bluster. The only confusion associated with the changelog is why it isn't being published anymore.

does the term 'whitewash' exist in german ?
Wouldn't a "Known Issues" list make more sense?
Suppose they did fix one of your bugs but didn't list it or it was unclear from the wording it was your bug. What then?

As a user you couldn't post your own changelog, but I can definitely foresee a few debates about a known issue not being in the list. Making it a known issue.

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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by emef » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:53 am

downloaded quickly for me last night using 'free download manager'

dum
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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by dum » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:54 am

but I don't entirely disagree with you hoff, I too think the reason for not publishing the changelog is to prevent any kind of list from being collated in public again.

but not for reasons of avoiding 'confusion & terror' :roll:
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by dum » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:56 am

hoffman2k wrote: Wouldn't a "Known Issues" list make more sense?
Suppose they did fix one of your bugs but didn't list it or it was unclear from the wording it was your bug. What then?

As a user you couldn't post your own changelog, but I can definitely foresee a few debates about a known issue not being in the list. Making it a known issue.
Absolutely, a known issue would make total sense. It wouldn't make 'more' sense though.

Known Issue lists & Changelogs aren't mutually exclusive. Both are essential imo. It was bad enough without the known issues list, now there's no changelog either.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

hoffman2k
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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by hoffman2k » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:00 pm

3phase wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:
The changelogs vanished after somebody thought it would be a good idea to put them all into a big list without any context. Well at least it proved they're listening. But the reception isn't quite clear :D

you talking about that list somebody compiled from a vew updates?

ok..it was very very long.. but so what? are there still people that think L8 has no problems?
Some people know they don't have problems. I've had my fair share of bugs in the past years and I'm not having a lot of issues apart from a few outstanding bugs which I helped reproduce.
3phase wrote:It looked all the time that certain bugs or problems in general was related to certain hardware configs.. i just found never any hint to that scenario in the change logs..so either they wasnt really accurate about that..or many bugs just stay unrealized by the majority of the users but all have them...
Perfect proof of the Changelogs not being a lot of use for people with tons of issues like you. Given what they fixed from your reports, that log would have a whole section with your bugs. Instead we just have to wait and see how angry you get in the coming days to see if it really all got fixed. I'm betting you'd actually like a Known Issues list too.

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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by 3phase » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:03 pm

dum wrote:but I don't entirely disagree with you hoff, I too think the reason for not publishing the changelog is to prevent any kind of list from being collated in public again.

but not for reasons of avoiding 'confusion & terror' :roll:

its probably terror for the developers to be confronted with such a list after having fought with the problems all the time...

it must be a hard time for them...

however not a good idea to abandon the changelog totaly.. maybe not a log in public anymore..

but a statement..mentoning known issues that still has to be worked on..but make the people know that this wilkl be solved soon..mentonig solved problems or just the interesting info what kind of hard and software combinations showed trouble..shading light this way into the mysterie why some users have problems and others dont...
naming critical plugs.. so owners of the plugs can give some pressuer to the creators of the plug..not all bugs are abletons fault just because they only have appeard in v8...

it would be good to acompany such a release with a statement..

avoids confusion.. spends information to the curious and is maybe even good marketing with the wright words..

just to abadon it in a hard cut was no good idea in the given situation.. a fade is better to avoid confusion
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hoffman2k
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Re: 8.1.3 changelog and download problems

Post by hoffman2k » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:08 pm

dum wrote:
hoffman2k wrote: Wouldn't a "Known Issues" list make more sense?
Suppose they did fix one of your bugs but didn't list it or it was unclear from the wording it was your bug. What then?

As a user you couldn't post your own changelog, but I can definitely foresee a few debates about a known issue not being in the list. Making it a known issue.
Absolutely, a known issue would make total sense. It wouldn't make 'more' sense though.

Known Issue lists & Changelogs aren't mutually exclusive. Both are essential imo. It was bad enough without the known issues list, now there's no changelog either.
Yeah. I honestly do care about stability and have been helping towards it for a long time. But I don't not appreciate being in the dark.
dum wrote:but I don't entirely disagree with you hoff, I too think the reason for not publishing the changelog is to prevent any kind of list from being collated in public again.

but not for reasons of avoiding 'confusion & terror' :roll:
You gotta admit a lot of things in the changelog didn't make sense at all. I'm guessing its a combination of the two. Preventing the list from being collated and it being used to confuse the crap out of people.

A proper changelog that makes sense and/or a Known Issues list is exactly what we need.
Especially now Ableton's main goal is to eradicate bugs. Not every bug is easy to reproduce but some happen often enough to label them.

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