Ableton Forum

Just chiming in to say thanks for the swift repsonse to our complaints about the changelogs and the changelog itself. Looks like a worthwhile update.

Good god man, just release them. If it's to technical, our eyes will glaze over and we will move on to something else. Unless, there is a specific reason that you would like to keep private, there is no good reason to keep them from the public.

We are paying customers, not some shareware goon squad brigade. Treat us like the people that hand over OUR money to you, the developer.

****looks like I was late. Didn't know they had been posted. Apologies.****

Dennis DeSantis wrote:Hi folks,

Please understand that the decision to not post changelogs was not an attempt to "whitewash" anything. We simply thought they were too technical and specific to be useful for a wide range of users.

That being said, thanks for the feedback on the topic. We're taking it all into consideration.

Best,

thanks for posting them. appreciate it.

Thanks.

Thanks Abes.

craftycurate wrote: They aren't too technical or specific - they can simply be ignored if not required, but they are very useful if checking if a particular bug has been addressed.

Exactly. Bug X is keeping my live sets in Live 7 until solved. A quick look at the changelog reveals bug X is not fixed, so instal is not an option for the laptop etc.
or the reverse, bug X is fixed, after some testing Live 8 might be stable enough for live use.

Why anybody would argue against change logs is beyond me?

Machinesworking wrote:

craftycurate wrote: They aren't too technical or specific - they can simply be ignored if not required, but they are very useful if checking if a particular bug has been addressed.

Exactly. Bug X is keeping my live sets in Live 7 until solved. A quick look at the changelog reveals bug X is not fixed, so instal is not an option for the laptop etc.
or the reverse, bug X is fixed, after some testing Live 8 might be stable enough for live use.

Why anybody would argue against change logs is beyond me?

At the risk of sounding like I'm arguing against changelogs again (which I'm not), I think the scenario you've posited here is not necessarily accurate, and is part of the reason why we were hesitant to release a changelog.

A user simply cannot know, from reading a changelog, whether or not a bug that they experienced on their machine is fixed, for at least one of the following reasons:

- Two portions of code cause the same buggy behavior. We've fixed one, but we don't yet know about the other.
- We fixed some code to solve Bug X. But this ALSO accidentally fixed Bug Y and no one knows it yet.
- We fixed some code to solve Bug X, and then some additional code to solve Bug Y. But one of these steps inadvertently broke the other, so now Bug X has reappeared in a slightly different way.
- etc.

The moral of the story is that software is complex, and that the only way to really know if something is working - for you - is to try it. While we have agreed to release changelogs now, we still don't think users should base their decision about whether or not to update on a reading of the changelogs.

Best,

Dennis DeSantis wrote: The moral of the story is that software is complex, and that the only way to really know if something is working - for you - is to try it. While we have agreed to release changelogs now, we still don't think users should base their decision about whether or not to update on a reading of the changelogs.

Not base your decision on it, but base how quickly you update, that's what I was getting at.
IMO anytime you update for all the reasons you listed you should take all Ableton Live related preferences and components and copy them to DVD or another HD for backup in case your setup destabilizes etc. The IMO least possible scenario is where fixing bug A fixes bug D, so knowing that bug D wasn't directly addressed is a good start on whether to wait until the weekend to update or jump on it that evening.

Some of us simply cannot afford to beta a new release, and knowing something, anything at all really about a new release is a good start towards not feeling like you're taking that risk, or at least minimizing it.

Dennis DeSantis wrote: The moral of the story is that software is complex, and that the only way to really know if something is working - for you - is to try it. While we have agreed to release changelogs now, we still don't think users should base their decision about whether or not to update on a reading of the changelogs.

First of all, thanks for posting the changelogs and thanks for engaging in this discussion in the first place.

Second, here's my main argument for changelogs: there were a couple of changelogs towards the beginning of Live 8 that I didn't get because the only changes included were related to hardware I didn't use. Updating uses up valuable music time for me, and before I update I want to make sure it's not a waste of my time. I understand that you can't say with any confidence that "problems related to x,y, and z are now solved, you guys should update," but if, say, 8.0.14 only fixes problems related to 64-bit processors, I don't need that update. And since my system is already *pretty* stable, I don't want to spend my time and add extra risk by updating. So a changelog is useful to me.

I don't care if the changes are "too technical".
I don't care if people post BS on the forum.

I paid for the software, and I need to know what's changed in the new versions, so I can decide if I want to install or not.
It's ridiculous.

Hi Sylvr,

Welcome to the forum.

Please note that release notes were posted several days ago.

You can find them at http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=141021

Best,

Fullofkittens wrote:First of all, thanks for posting the changelogs and thanks for engaging in this discussion in the first place.

Wanted to +1 that.

+1 for changelogs on every release.

For what it's worth, I am strongly in favour of knowing what's changed in every release, even if it's technical. If nothing else it shows how much hard work the Ableton developers are putting in and what we're getting for free!!

+1 for release notes. Other folk don't have to view them..

+1 for release notes, pretty please