This device alone makes Max4Live worth it...

[3phase]

This is from Cycling's own step sequencer. Its off by about 1/10th of 1/16384th. Or 1/163840th I suppose. Live doesn't measure that far down. And it definitely can't be measured in milliseconds. Its like 1/100th of a millisecond and that is a guess..
.

theese ableton units are not really worth strugeling with.. they go below a millisecond for sure. but not down to single samples..

if they would we at least would have a real indication.. but i think the smalest unit is someting like a quarter ms .. not sure anymore.. tested that a while ago but didnt bothered to memorize it because its useless info.. you cant use abletons editor to measure timing or positions.. you do that with optical orientation or use quantize.. pretty lame IMO

[Poster]

my biggest gripe with Max is the lack of portlabels.. who thought of that top>bottom signal flow anyway?
is that lack because Max has an academic background so assuming users are schooled what does what?

anyway.. this alone is really keeping me from diving deep.. it takes so long to understand that one patch, then there are a million others..
left>right signal flow FTW!

[hoffman2k]

i patched an clock jitter measuring ensemble/instrument in reaktor that can answer such questions..

http://www.3phase.de/Test/ClockJitterScope.ens.zip

but it also is an interesting question how much effort it is to patch such a measuring device in max...

it was pretty easy with reaktor because the wright tools are provided by the program.. just very simple thing..

incoming clock or audio pulses get amplified and limited.. and aplied with a negativ offset.. so we have a straight square pulse above the zero line..than the distance between uprising zero crossings is counted at samplerate.. the result is placed in a buffer..
next event arival is counted.. first buffer gets shifted to a second buffer.. first buffer is subtracted from second buffer.. result is displayed..

so you get the timing derivation from one event to the other..

I haven't looked for it hard yet. Its not because I don't know it that it doesn't exist. There probably are tools like that. And I didn't even think of using audio buffers for that, so you see I definitely was looking in the wrong direction.
But I think its essentially the same as I just suggested. A phase cancellation test would give the same result. Maybe even more reliable if there is no buffering latency.

and regarding the sequencers. i know thats possible.. just the amount of action and the timing precission that one achives is in question here. There was an articel regarding a max sequencer with automatic harmonic correction that goes even further than my attempts.. so it is possible with max.. but for sure not easy.. especially with sequencers its not only the code..it´s the general handling of the thing..

If I'm not mistaken, that was about a single object that does pitch tracking and there several of them. Outputting in frequencies, Note Numbers, etc.. I believe this job is like 50% copy/paste from the help file of the object.

one of the more complikated but still simple sequencers i patched for the nord modular is still one of the most usefull on stage for me...

its a realtime sequencer but it´s designed in a way where you build up from a half bar motiv to a complete 4 bar theme, repeats what i play automatical but quantized and as soon you touch the keyboard the sequencer is off..so you can variate the theme live on stage with additional chords.. a pretty good house music sequencer..

Just to develop this motiv to scene routine in a way that you can operate it without much thinking on stage has needed much time.. and all my trys to do a more simple less cpu hungry version fail on stage because the results get more simple than aswell.. it eats 100 % on my nord and only has a pitch detection.. so i cant play stakato notes on the same pitch..

Pretty sure this isn't a very CPU intensive task to achieve. The software is probably already half done from a monome looper of which there are plenty.

That what scares me with max the most.. that it needs to much time.to achive the goals..

to do the same in reaktor is actuall much harder work.. however it will be more capabel in the end...

You don't know if the Reaktor version will be more capable. Clear logic dictates that with M4L being integrated, it is better at all those things. Its just different.
And in regards to patching time. It usually takes me longer to get around to starting something than to actually build it. And if I didn't build it, somebody would have.
Honestly, terminology is the biggest barrier. For all you know you're already a Max expert. You just need to learn the new words.

[3phase]

If I'm not mistaken, that was about a single object that does pitch tracking and there several of them. Outputting in frequencies, Note Numbers, etc.. I believe this job is like 50% copy/paste from the help file of the object.

thats good.. but the detectors i use dont just track the pitch..they track when i change it and write that time position in the sequencer.. you know all this sequencers out there are very stupid when it comes to real time timing information.. but in dance music thats the important part of the deal.. i dont like to dial in the rytthm, i want to play it.. and do the dialing with the notes after that.. that the genial invention behind the 303 sequencer most people just dont understand..they usually see this as uncomfortable and prefer try and error on any 16th step..which takes much to long on stage.. you can do that in the studio ..but its not stage realtime.. any thing you do the people hear, there are no second trys..

Its defenetly the best to do it the old fashioned way..just hit the drum and dont program something that hits it for you at position X/Y..

Its a pitty that most people that develop sequencer work based on the concept of pre recorded and preprogramend / composed content..the classical way.. therfore theier sequencers are either semi random, generic or just playback...

Even the new fricke drummachines miss the good ol tap in feature.. it is actually sad that such a basic musican related feature got lost during the contemporary development..

Drummachines was the first capabel stage sequencers.. And in many regards they are still the most advanced when it comes to writing on stage..

The korg electribes or the elektron machines show that pretty good...or the mpc

A complete machine drum emulation would be a good max projekt

You don't know if the Reaktor version will be more capable. Clear logic dictates that with M4L being integrated, it is better at all those things. Its just different.
And in regards to patching time. It usually takes me longer to get around to starting something than to actually build it. And if I didn't build it, somebody would have.
Honestly, terminology is the biggest barrier. For all you know you're already a Max expert. You just need to learn the new words.

I wish it would be that easy.. looking to max patches and the stuff you discuss in the mfl forum i really dont think so.. that stuff is really far off...


I havent ment that my reaktor version will be more cababel than a mfl version.. it will be more capabel then my nord modular version..

in the nord modular i can play the patch polyphonic..but it dont stores polyphonic,so i mainly use it for monophon lead lines on stage and add a few chords by hand...

with reaktor there is no limit regarding that, thanks to the event tables

[hoffman2k]

Jeez you can make things complicated man.

Let me try to summarize it. You're looking for a TR style step recording, but polyphonic in a looper with a variable length between half a bar to 4 bars which can be interrupted by Live input from a keyboard.

Did I get that right?

[3phase]

Jeez you can make things complicated man.

Let me try to summarize it. You're looking for a TR style step recording, but polyphonic in a looper with a variable length between half a bar to 4 bars which can be interrupted by Live input from a keyboard.

Did I get that right?

there is a bit more in volved like different copy overwrite options .. but basically yes. something like an sage optimized polyphone 303 sequencer would be nice

[hoffman2k]

Jeez you can make things complicated man.

Let me try to summarize it. You're looking for a TR style step recording, but polyphonic in a looper with a variable length between half a bar to 4 bars which can be interrupted by Live input from a keyboard.

Did I get that right?

there is a bit more in volved like different copy overwrite options .. but basically yes. something like an sage optimized polyphone 303 sequencer would be nice

There's an object called live.step on which the built in sequencer is based. Implementing the step recording shouldn't be too tricky. Quantization is easy to do too. The polyphonic stuff might be a bit tricky to do, but I'm not sure. Haven't done much research there yet.
Copy/Paste/Protect and maybe even Morphing patterns may be possible.
I'm sure somebody could help with the polyphonic stuff. The rest is probably less than a weeks work.

[3phase]

The rest is probably less than a weeks work.

assuming you know max...

[hoffman2k]

The rest is probably less than a weeks work.

assuming you know max...

Yeah true. Maybe I'll build it one day just to taunt you.
I'm sure somebody is already working on it though. Did you know we can access notes in clips? This means a clip could be a sequencer and it could respond to step note input, regular input recording or whatever note generator you add to it.
Live already has quantized recording. Copy/Paste from the device to other clips works too I suppose.
That is 2 methods so far. I was doomed from the start of this argument wasn't I? Its easy.. its possible... prove it.. D'oh..

[3phase]

The rest is probably less than a weeks work.

assuming you know max...

Yeah true. Maybe I'll build it one day just to taunt you.
I'm sure somebody is already working on it though. Did you know we can access notes in clips? This means a clip could be a sequencer and it could respond to step note input, regular input recording or whatever note generator you add to it.
Live already has quantized recording. Copy/Paste from the device to other clips works too I suppose.
That is 2 methods so far. I was doomed from the start of this argument wasn't I? Its easy.. its possible... prove it.. D'oh..

yep.. and you have one day..
just dont forget that ithas to be operatable.. my stage sequencer works with 5 controls for the basic and another 6th one for the swing factor... with this i can do the recording ..the copy/play in mode and the source destination pattern select while the length of the paaterns is stepping up only 1 locations..half bar..1 bar ..2 bar 1, 2 bar 2 and a do all 4 switch that overirdes the destination setting..

with the source pattern select i can choose what gets copied.. the half.. the one or one of the 2 2 bar patterns...

when i play during copy the pattern is altered at the positions i play.. when i disable the copy switch all data is overiden.. resulting in pattern erase when i dont play or a new recording when i play...

Thats a pretty cool concept that allows a lot of variation with just 2 rotary encoders and 3 switches.. and the swng amount knob that is rather a global parameter than sequencer related...

if it would be possible to patent such things i would do..because it works extremly well on stage...
the displays to the knobs of the G2 and having it close to the keyboard helps.. probably that is an important part to the performability of the sequencer no mfl can replace..

however..anyway just an example.. a live sequencer needs to be very perfomant wtit just little controls.

ah i forgot.. when i move the pitch bend during a copy process it alters the sequence in quantized steps.. not a bad feature aswell

[Hertz SM]

What's clearly confusing for Max noobs (I am, therefore I can tell) is the lack of 'defined' modules. You type into the object (sometimes message) what you want it to be - to put it simple. This is really different to module orientated systems like Reaktor, Synthedit, Synthmaker, ArtWonk and the like where every task has its brick you can select from a list.

[Tone Deft]

click on the patcher window and the Palette window opens up. if an object has a numbered circle on it, click the circle to select from a flavor of the object.

[3dot...]

click on the patcher window and the Palette window opens up. if an object has a numbered circle on it, click the circle to select from a flavor of the object.

yes...exactly...
...then do a search in max-help for 'prototype'...

[3phase]

and than the magical wonder fairy appears and fullfills your wishes?

[Hertz SM]

Comparison: Adding two values

Reaktor: Right click -> Built-in module -> Math -> Add
Max: 'n' -> then type '+'

Comparison: Set a constant

Reaktor: Right click - Built-in module -> Math -> Constant -> Properties -> then type value
Max: 'm' -> then type value

Something else: Once you know the leading letters in an object are really important (watch this little 'r' and 's' and 'p' ...) you'll read Max patches with different eyes. You won't seek commonly known modules anymore but look for the tag of these oh so similar looking rectangles. For me this is (was) the main secret. Then Max is straightforward and browsing the help is much more on topic.