Am I Crazy, LIve has Huge Headroom??

[diskowipe]

Been a live user for many many years, love the program...

I make techno/house, few releases out no biggie

anyways, so like most producers i try and get maximum punch out of my kicks/bass and i am happy with the tools ableton offers me to do so...

i have watched many videos of robert henke and others using live where i notice they are letting their individual channels hit way into the red on the meters. i have read the manual and i understand the floating point thing but I now believe there is an actual aesthetic reason for this??

I by chance opened the "new in live 8" demo set and sure enough, the kicks and percs are hitting above the red but being brought down at the master stage.

I did some a/b on my own material and I swear it actually sounds better/fatter by doing this. My physical output is still not clipping but by comparing having the levels way down in the green and turning the volume of my mixer up compared to having the channels hitting in the red, the sound is fatter and its not a result of a volume difference...

Is this true? I have seen many screenshots of henke playing live and giving lectures and always i see his meters blasting into the red and wondered why. Is this why?? If so this is fcking SIIIICKKKK. i guess its dub for me to ask if it's true since i hear it but goddamn i always wondered why all these guys i see using live were redding out all the channels

[H20nly]

it tit its outta c con control

[Grappadura]

good topic I´ve wondered about this too.

[Tone Deft]

I did some a/b on my own material and I swear it actually sounds better/fatter by doing this. My physical output is still not clipping but by comparing having the levels way down in the green and turning the volume of my mixer up compared to having the channels hitting in the red, the sound is fatter and its not a result of a volume difference...

louder is always perceived as sounding better. the faders only apply gain, nothing more, there's no fatness algorithm to it.

you can drive a channel into the red but if you do that with more than one channel you'll have the master down so low you'll lose your effective dynamic range at the Master. IOW the Master fader will be at -30dB while the audio is at 0dB, you don't have much room to move the Master.

first thing I do with a clip is to bump the clip's gain so it fills the waveform view. then things flow nicely from there. you know you're in a good spot when you have to turn channels down to mix and not up.

[3phase]

Been a live user for many many years, love the program...

I make techno/house, few releases out no biggie

anyways, so like most producers i try and get maximum punch out of my kicks/bass and i am happy with the tools ableton offers me to do so...

i have watched many videos of robert henke and others using live where i notice they are letting their individual channels hit way into the red on the meters. i have read the manual and i understand the floating point thing but I now believe there is an actual aesthetic reason for this??

I by chance opened the "new in live 8" demo set and sure enough, the kicks and percs are hitting above the red but being brought down at the master stage.

I did some a/b on my own material and I swear it actually sounds better/fatter by doing this. My physical output is still not clipping but by comparing having the levels way down in the green and turning the volume of my mixer up compared to having the channels hitting in the red, the sound is fatter and its not a result of a volume difference...

Is this true? I have seen many screenshots of henke playing live and giving lectures and always i see his meters blasting into the red and wondered why. Is this why?? If so this is fcking SIIIICKKKK. i guess its dub for me to ask if it's true since i hear it but goddamn i always wondered why all these guys i see using live were redding out all the channels

acording to ableton it should be the same.. but theire audio engine seems to be still in development.. i wouldnt exclude the possebility that it has an fx...
also possible that some of theirer plugs, or external ones dont have an unlimitetd 32 float headroom..

But in general i would thnk that this would be buggy behaviour because after theire fact book ther shoulndt be any coloration involved in this kind of gain structure..

I actually dont know if that is really true.. they are the experts.. but there are other experts out there.. The guys from Rane for example had some articles regarding digital audio in the internet that claim that unlimited headrooms cause a signal degeneration themself by having the point floating too much. Causing a higher accumulated error rate in the end than artifical limited headrooms... Maybe a reason why logics soundengine dont allows such drastical overshoots as abletons...

Anyway..i dont know.. I am just very certain that the last word regarding digital audio engines is not spoken yet..
The very strong trend towards analog summing and mixing is actually not a media hype..rather the opposite..the digital superiority was the media hype..and now we see a backlash and companys like API find customers for >100K desks again

[Tone Deft]

i dont know..

agreed.

you're writing that a simple gain adjustment in Live does more than make it louder? c'mon man...

[3phase]

i dont know..

agreed.

wait and see fanboy.. the future will bring the air bus...

the art of mixing is not a simple addition of signals.. that is just not the way soundsources mix by nature..

and no digital nerd can opose to that simple fact..


An old style analog console is in many regards closer to the natural process of mixing in the dynamic media air than the 2+2=4 digital mixing bus.

A plain addition is a rather primitivistic approach towards mixing of sounds..


The best mixer is air

not a contemporary digital mixbus..

there is defenetly room for further invention. a lot of room actually

[3phase]

i dont know..

agreed.

you're writing that a simple gain adjustment in Live does more than make it louder? c'mon man...

i havent wrote that.. but after the experiances of the last year i wouldnt be surprised if it wouldnt work as expected because things at any corner havent worked as expected.. 1000 bugs..but not a single one effecting the audio engine? ok..possible.

I clearly said that after the book there should be no difference.. i might check it when my health is better and i leave studio B..

the good monitors are in studio A

[H20nly]

2+2=4 digital mixing bus.

[Grappadura]

I did some a/b on my own material and I swear it actually sounds better/fatter by doing this. My physical output is still not clipping but by comparing having the levels way down in the green and turning the volume of my mixer up compared to having the channels hitting in the red, the sound is fatter and its not a result of a volume difference...

louder is always perceived as sounding better. the faders only apply gain, nothing more, there's no fatness algorithm to it.

you can drive a channel into the red but if you do that with more than one channel you'll have the master down so low you'll lose your effective dynamic range at the Master. IOW the Master fader will be at -30dB while the audio is at 0dB, you don't have much room to move the Master.

first thing I do with a clip is to bump the clip's gain so it fills the waveform view. then things flow nicely from there. you know you're in a good spot when you have to turn channels down to mix and not up.

but what if you just drive the master into red? a friend does that as a part of his "mastering", he says its like using a limiter.

now if there is "headroom" why not abuse it till there isnt?

[Tone Deft]

if the Master goes over 0dB it will clip. never push the Master into the red. don't use the Master as a limiter, put a limiter on the Master so it doesn't go into the red.

[H20nly]

^ ^ next thread subject in support corner "Live must suck - pops, crackles and drop outs in my mix"

you've still got money, why not keep gambling?

[[nis]]

but what if you just drive the master into red?

This will cause clipping on the DACs of your soundcard / audio interface. The master track or any track which is routed to an external output should never go into the red.

Individual channels which are routed internally can be driven hot, because floating point calculations are not restricted to 0 dB. There's a safety limit at +60 dB, though. Anything beyond +60 dB will clip (in Live).

Best,
Nico

[Tone Deft]

64dB?!?!?!!!! now THAT'S German engineering!

[[nis]]

64dB?!?!?!!!! now THAT'S German engineering!

It's *magic*.

You can easily try it yourself. Just play an Operator sinewave and push the level to +60 dB (e.g. with several Utility devices). The signal will remain clear until you reach +61 dB (provided that you compensate the master to -60 dB).

n.