stereo spread and correlation logic/live

[buzby]

last night my friend introduced me to correlating tracks in t-racks and logic

we tried putting a finished track (pre-master) into logic and used a stereo spread and a correlation meter to sit the track in the zero range (new concept to me so excuse the terminology if its wrong) anyways - we found it difficult to get the track to sit at zero - i guess you have to adjust the correlation of each track within the song as opposed to trying to do it on a finished track

- we tried putting some tracks from a new song that we are making into logic and messed with the correlation - the difference in sound is amazing (coupled with - we have started this song by mixing in mono and switching to stereo every now and then to check things.. good god...wish id have found out about that ages ago)

anyways - is there someway to use devices in live to work like the stereo spread and correlation meter in logic - (utility maybe) ???

thanks

[luddy]

yeah, this is a secret of mastering engineers. it does indeed make a huge difference. you can use it to increase the power of the tracks, improve the mono mix, and also to soften up the imaging and spread it out around the lead vocal. lots of different things you can do. also you can apply it to individual tracks, as you say, to enhance the effects of panning.

There is a free tool from Flux called "STTool" (I think that's the name). It has a width slider and a goniometer, which gives much the same information as the correlation meter but in a different form. The utility plug in Live gives you the same width control, but lacks the metering. There are lots of other tools out there for this kind of thing, including correlation meters, mostly available as part of mastering suites, but the only others I know about are not free ...

-Luddy

[UKRuss]

Check out NuGen Audio. They have plenty of audio analysis tools and the Steroizer 3 is great, plus they are giving away Stereoizer CM with computer music which is a nice little stereo spreader.

If you want to spend some cash then you can't do much better than T-Racks metering, it was on special offer at audiomidi, might have ended now.

And for more cash but a very very useful tool nontheless: Izotope Ozone.

[leedsquietman]

Always check your mixes in mono after using any kind of stereo enhancement to make sure phasing issues aren't occurring and that things don't drop out of the mix through overprocessing.

Stereo tools can be useful in moderation but are easily abused and can destabilize a mix if you're not careful. It's important to find the sweet spot without overcooking it.

[buzby]

thanks for the replies

- gonna check out the plug ins - it would be nice to have meter in live though

[Tarekith]

Putting everything to 0 on a correlation meter just means the signal is mono. You could use Utility and set the width to 0 if you wanted to do this in Live. Never heard of anyone doing this for every track though, weird concept....

[luddy]

Putting everything to 0 on a correlation meter just means the signal is mono. You could use Utility and set the width to 0 if you wanted to do this in Live. Never heard of anyone doing this for every track though, weird concept....

No, mono (same signal in L and R) corresponds to perfect correlation, i.e., +1. If you put the same signal into L and R but invert one of them, then you should have perfect inverse correlation, which corresponds to -1 on the meter. A correlation of 0 means that L and R and uncorrelated, i.e., entirely independent. That gives you the most stereo image together with the minimum phase cancellation in the mono sum.
-Luddy

[Sarrova-Q]

You will likely have more phasing issues when you're working with 'stereo recorded instruments' rather than synths.
Even professional libraries (like the Kontakt VSL strings but also the Live Grand Piano which is really bad) have problems with correlation -> you can hear it very good and if you can't, try putting a good meter on them and be surprised.

The goal is to have your tracks/instruments between 0 and +1 (+1 means no correlation/phasing/mono problems), everything from 0 to -1 needs to be avoided because of serious phasing problems (when you max out to -1 you will hear nothing if you switch to mono because the frequencies are cancelling each other out..

My magic correlation/phasing tool is the brainworx control. It works with M/S technology and let's you fix phasing problems and or widen tracks very well.


Good explanation!

No, mono (same signal in L and R) corresponds to perfect correlation, i.e., +1. If you put the same signal into L and R but invert one of them, then you should have perfect inverse correlation, which corresponds to -1 on the meter. A correlation of 0 means that L and R and uncorrelated, i.e., entirely independent. That gives you the most stereo image together with the minimum phase cancellation in the mono sum.
-Luddy

[Tarekith]

Putting everything to 0 on a correlation meter just means the signal is mono. You could use Utility and set the width to 0 if you wanted to do this in Live. Never heard of anyone doing this for every track though, weird concept....

No, mono (same signal in L and R) corresponds to perfect correlation, i.e., +1. If you put the same signal into L and R but invert one of them, then you should have perfect inverse correlation, which corresponds to -1 on the meter. A correlation of 0 means that L and R and uncorrelated, i.e., entirely independent. That gives you the most stereo image together with the minimum phase cancellation in the mono sum.
-Luddy

Doh, you're right, oops. It's early, no coffee yet, what can I say.

[luddy]

Doh, you're right, oops. It's early, no coffee yet, what can I say.

Gotta stay on top of those brown food group levels.

-L

[leedsquietman]

Sonalksis stereo tools also provides you with m/s processing.

This and Brainworx are 2 very good products for such work.

There are also various phase correct tools such as Little Labs, and certain other plugins such as Spectralive NXT by Crysonic use phase correction as part of their 'mojo'.

However, many DAWS give you better tools for analysis of phasing and correlation than Live.

[buzby]

The goal is to have your tracks/instruments between 0 and +1 (+1 means no correlation/phasing/mono problems), everything from 0 to -1 needs to be avoided because of serious phasing problems (when you max out to -1 you will hear nothing if you switch to mono because the frequencies are cancelling each other out..

this is what my friend pretty much told me too ..

[theque]

good thread

[buzby]

Always check your mixes in mono after using any kind of stereo enhancement to make sure phasing issues aren't occurring and that things don't drop out of the mix through overprocessing.

Stereo tools can be useful in moderation but are easily abused and can destabilize a mix if you're not careful. It's important to find the sweet spot without overcooking it.

yah man - been checking in mono as we go -also realized that there could be a danger of over doing it -

so - how do you work with it? as in .. do you find yourself applying it to individual tracks as you build a song ? do you bus certain tracks to a track with a stereo widener on ? do you wait until you ve finished arranging the tracks, panning etc and then apply it ? just curious as to your (or anyones) approach

the track that im just finishing has been a tricky track to make and without going into it im going to stop messing with it soon cos i ve gone back to it too many times to change things - anyways - it needs a bit of fixing of where some of the track sits in the correlation reading - so do you recommend using a stereo enhancer on the master to fix this? im asking cos im wondering about adding stereo width to drums and bass.

im wondering if to bounce down the drums and bass to a separate track - stick an enhancer on the rest of the mix and bounce them together again before mastering or if its ok to just add it as part of the mastering process?

im gonna do a bunch of reading up on this today

[buzby]

There is a free tool from Flux called "STTool" (I think that's the name). It has a width slider and a goniometer, which gives much the same information as the correlation meter but in a different form.

Check out NuGen Audio. They have plenty of audio analysis tools and the Steroizer 3 is great, plus they are giving away Stereoizer CM with computer music which is a nice little stereo spreader.

oh yeah - thanks for these