Making the switch to logic

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
kristian
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Making the switch to logic

Post by kristian » Tue May 18, 2010 2:57 pm

OK, so I've been thinking of making the switch to Logic for some time now; just thought I would ask here for advice. I've been using just Live since version 5 (first PC, then made the switch to Mac a few years ago); before that I was a Cubase user (PC). I must admit that I'm still a "linear" kind of guy; I hardly use session view for more than getting a basic idea for a tune down; then I switch to arrangement and "finish" it up. I don't play my sets live to an audience nor do I DJ. Please don't deteriorate this thread into an Ableton-fanboy issue; I have a fairly good grasp of Live; I just think that, since Logic 9 also now has elastic audio/time-stretching which was the only feature I was missing from Logic, it will probably suit me better. Some reasons:

1) I have 8 GB RAM; Logic is 64 bit so I won't run into the memory constraint of Live. This, I have to admit, is not a big issue as 4GB is quite alot for me, but I have run into it once on a big-ass song; might be a moot point but hey :)

2) I like some of Logic's native effects like the amp-emulations and the stompbox stuff; I haven't tried them myself as I can't seem to actually find a demo of Logic (can only buy it from the Apple store as far as I can tell) but there are some nice sample audio/videos on the net

3) Logic, as far as I can tell, has better MIDI handling (supports sysex/NRPN).. again, I can't confirm this, just reading and surfing a bit on the net. I have some hardware synths that are a pain to record automation in cause they only handle sysex (like my Alesis Micron).. I can get around this in Live I know (there's a Micron Au editor that I use), so its not THAT important as there are workarounds.. but it would be nice to just be able to handle sysex as good as CC's

4) less bugs (?). Now... Live has crashed ALOT for me (blabla bug reports and all that; this is not what this thread is about). I've heard that Logic 9 had its fair share of bugs as well; these have now been mostly ironed out it seems in Logic 9.0.1 or something.. again, all I have to base this on are rumours

What I hope is for some friendly advice from people who actually USE Logic and know the software: given that I hardly use session view etc. etc. (see above).. are there any obvious reasone why I shouldn't make the change?

SubFunk
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by SubFunk » Tue May 18, 2010 3:05 pm

if the workflow suits you, then go logic.

it is a great program and extremely CPU efficient.

what more is there to say?

i use both Logic8 (don't really need time stretch / warping) and live8

except the session view, you said you hardly need, Logic does all you need with a much greater CPU efficiency.

it is a bit harder to learn, but well worth it, it is a stronger program... (depending what you do / need, not all it can do you might need)

if linear sequencing is anyway your thing... and you don't need it for stage performances... then it is surely the better choice, IMO.

for me personally the session view / clips is all that keeps me staying with ableton live.
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Hidden Driveways
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by Hidden Driveways » Tue May 18, 2010 4:31 pm

I may get Logic soon too, but not to "switch."

I just want to grow a little and see what I can do with it. Get some ReWire happening with Live. Mess around. Make music.

I don't see myself dropping Live as my main DAW anytime soon. I can do everything I need to do with BLAZING speed. It's been my main tool for over 6 years. I can get work finished really quickly.

musick
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by musick » Tue May 18, 2010 6:47 pm

I use both, Live as 'creative scratchpad' and Logic for powerfull mixing, lots of tracks etc.
They are both great programs that complete each other very well. Why choose? Use both :)
MacPro, Synthesizers.com modular, Logic Studio, RME FireFace 400, Waves, Live 8/Ableton Suite/Drum Machines/M4L, MaxMSP, MoogerFoogers

luddy
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by luddy » Tue May 18, 2010 7:11 pm

I'm kind of the mirror image of the OP; I've worked in Logic for years, but have recently started working more and more in Live. I'm very proficient in Logic and it's taking me a little while to get the same proficiency in Live but I think I'll get to the same level in Live pretty soon.

In my case, the big draw with Live is
1) drum racks

nothing in Logic even begins to touch this.

2) instrument racks

this is less significant to me than drum racks but still an amazingly useful feature. to set up the routing that replicates
racks using Logic's auxes etc. is a slow, unreadable nightmare.

3) instruments and effects in general

Logic's built-in effects and instruments get a lot of good press, but I like Live's better -- across the board. sampler has better fading and (much) better filters and envelopes than EXS24. It's not even close, as a sound design tool. The delays and other small utilities in Live are just great for sound design. I don't like Logic's Space Designer, and have almost never chosen it in a mix anyway.

Small things that I like about Live are the routing, the automation display, the audio editing, etc. 8.1.3 has been rock-solid for me; I keep it running for days at a time, work all day long in it without ever shutting it down, and no problems. The most recent version of Logic has been crashing like crazy on me with out-of-memory errors.

The thing I miss most about Logic when I'm in Live are:

1) midi editing
2) automation curves

Vocal comping in Logic is huge, but I don't try to do vocal tracking sessions in Live anyway. I still have to work in Logic to handle very big projects and to do any significant audio tracking, and that's fine, I like Logic for that kind of thing.

RE: sysex, polyphonic aftertouch, NRPNs, etc: Logic handles all of these and handles them well. You can view the data in raw form in the event window and transform it into other kinds of data with the transform functions, etc. Logic is as good as it gets in its MIDI handling.

hth,

-Luddy

Grievous Angel
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by Grievous Angel » Tue May 18, 2010 8:15 pm

Logic + Live is fabulous combination

leedsquietman
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by leedsquietman » Tue May 18, 2010 8:28 pm

Logic in 64 bit mode is pretty much still a beta and there have been issues with a RAM bug under Snow Leopard, causing core audio overloads on very low track counts.

Some of the features of Logic also don't work yet in 64 bit mode.

64 bit DAWS also have issues with some 32 bit plugins (the vast majority of plugins do not have 64 bit native coding and require bit bridging, which can be flaky).

By the time Logic 10 comes around, most of this should be ironed out and 64 bit should be the dominant platform, so you might want to wait a while.

Most of us expect Live 9 will be 64 bit compatible too BTW.
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kristian
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by kristian » Tue May 18, 2010 8:53 pm

thanks so much for interesting replies!

@ luddy :

1) Very good point about 64-bit plugin support; I actually forgot about the obvious problem of VSTs not being 64-bit yet... I guess the whole 64-bit issue is a bit too early yet (which is a shame as its not exactly new...)

2) I got NI Maschine recently and been using this quite alot instead of previous drum-racks etc. Instrument racks are quite handy I admit... didn´t know that Logic doesn´t have anything similar. I can fully see that having to add alot of aux tracks can be a pain.

3) isn´t the automation view quite similar in Logic? How does Logic handle the concept of Live´s automation lanes? I´ve only seen screenshots etc..

4) How is audio editing in Live better? I like Sampler alot but haven´t used it that much too be honest other than laying out zones for samples I´ve found etc... must play around with the filters some more I guess :) I thought EXS24 would be better; but as I´ve said before.. all I´ve seen are reviews etc.; interesting point of view

5) Logic crashing? Ewww... that doesn´t sound too promising... anyone else having crash issues with Logic?

When you guys use both Ableton and Logic; do you use them at the same time using rewire? I understand the basics behind rewire (how it works as Logic has a rewire master and Live as a rewire slave routing audio (not MIDI) into Logic).. but how is the performance? Any major performance hit?

The Carpet Cleaner
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by The Carpet Cleaner » Tue May 18, 2010 9:00 pm

Ive read few times already that mashcine and Logic were not working that well together.

SubFunk
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by SubFunk » Tue May 18, 2010 9:03 pm

1ino1eum wrote:Ive read few times already that mashcine and Logic were not working that well together.
don't know about logic9 but it does with logic8
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nylarch
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by nylarch » Tue May 18, 2010 9:22 pm

My 2c and I use them both.

It really depends on what you do. If you do mainly electronic music composition or sound design I feel like a lot of people that use Logic exclusively have used it for years and years and know it really well and kind of stick to it. Logic can be really fast once you know it - maybe faster than Ableton in some ways. Having said that there's a lot of things that seem really "last generation" about it and Ableton seems so forward. Sampler vs. EXS for sure. Browsing through your library, editing audio (reversing, etc.), just grabbing some audio from arrange and chucking into Simpler is so smooth and doing the same in Logic seems kind of old school (of course I don't have 9 so I know a lot has gotten better).

I do miss certain Logic plugs but find myself going 100% Ableton these days. A few freebies can fill the gaps - for instance I love Logic's simple Sample Delay for thickening snares or hats but Voxengo has a freebie that does the job. I also never really liked Delay Designer either but Space Designer is great and I'm looking for something that nice to use in Ableton.

I think the "new" thing that Ableton brings is the ability to almost "play" a mix with effect racks....its really quite brilliant and Logic is much more traditional. If you do a lot of vocals maybe Logic is better but I expect multi-take editing to show up in Ableton soon. Caribou did his latest album 100% in Ableton and the vocals sound great.

Anyway I could be totally wrong but feel like if you're not deep with Logic right now just stay with Abes and get deep on that.
MacBook Pro; Live 8 Suite, Reaktor; '77 Fender Jazz Bass; Apogee One;

kristian
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by kristian » Tue May 18, 2010 9:40 pm

I´m actually gonna start to work on some vocals quite soon... what exactly am I missing out when it comes to vocal comping / multitake editing? Haven´t worked with vocals before so I don´t really know what other options there are other than doing multiple takes in Live using just different clips...

Dalski
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by Dalski » Tue May 18, 2010 10:34 pm

nylarch wrote:Browsing through your library

The library browser is one thing I absolutely LOVE about Logic, I'm not an owner of the app but I know people who use it extensively and have had a little play with it. I want Ableton to incorporate a tagged browser into Live.

Machinesworking
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by Machinesworking » Tue May 18, 2010 10:48 pm

For a non live performance composer who's used Cubase in the past, who likes a linear DAW, Logic is a better choice.

MOTU Digital Performer is pretty amazing too, and if you were to at all be thinking about live use, I would suggest it over Logic.
Some of the workflow is better too, I think the way DP handles multiple versions of a song is far superior to Logic for instance.
The Track Overview and Sequencer pages as opposed to Logic, Live, or Cubase's "arrange" windows can be daunting to some though.

luddy
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Re: Making the switch to logic

Post by luddy » Wed May 19, 2010 2:43 am

kristian wrote: 3) isn´t the automation view quite similar in Logic?
Logic's notion of region automation is really terribly compared to Live's clip automation, and it seems to me much easier to use controllers to manipulate the automation in Live than in Logic.
I like Sampler alot but haven´t used it that much too be honest other than laying out zones for samples I´ve found etc... must play around with the filters some more I guess :) I thought EXS24 would be better; but as I´ve said before.. all I´ve seen are reviews etc.; interesting point of view
EXS24 is VERY efficient; you can load up a ridiculous number of instances of it before causing Logic to hiccup. EXS24 is really just a raw sample playback engine -- and a good one. Concerning features, Sampler is deceivingly simple-looking. It can cross-fade velocity layers (EXS24 cannot). This is a huge help in making some multisamples play evenly. The chain selector thing is 100x simpler than Logic's notion of groups, and it is integrated into the automation / controllers perfectly. The envelopes (for pitch, filter, amplitude) are loopable (!) and have controllable exponentiation. What Live lacks in automation curves, it gets back in terms of Sampler's envelopes. And the filters are sweet. Honestly, with the right waveforms that thing is a formidable little synth by itself.

On top of that, when you put multiple samplers into an instrument rack, you get a different kind of layering that gives you separate effects for the layers. To do this kind of thing in Logic, you set up a multiple output EXS24 and then put effects on various aux channels, and if you want to automate the effects you create arrange tracks for those channels ... lots of hair and after a while your mixer window is chaos.

Live is deceiving. It looks in a lot of ways like it is feature-poor but in fact it is not. In a few areas it is genuinely missing something, but in many ways it is already more feature-rich than Logic.

-Luddy

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