What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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Leon Tricker
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What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Leon Tricker » Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:45 pm

The quality of the output is related to the ability of the user!

:lol:

macmurphy
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by macmurphy » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:35 pm

ha! well said..

3phase
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by 3phase » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:49 pm

so the fanboys are the most abled while the pro world is so unableton that it hurts

and all the other daw manufactors cant compete with theire auto good sound tools for beginners..
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Pasha » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:28 pm

The secret is that:

"There is no audio engine." :lol:
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doghouse
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by doghouse » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:51 pm

There's nothing wrong with Ableton's audio engine. Few people doing electronic music (which is what most Live users do) push the limits of the audio quality of any of the DAWs, even everyone's favorite whipping boys Fruity Loops and Reason. Now if you need to record classical music in a great sounding hall with $$$$$$ mikes you should be more picky about your DAW's audio performance.

The reason that ProTools and Cubase/Nuendo have so much of the pro market locked up has to do with things completely unrelated to any drastically superior audio quality and everything to do with who was in the market first and catered to the needs of pro users who could afford the very expensive hardware needed at the time to run the software.

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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by 3phase » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:40 am

doghouse wrote:There's nothing wrong with Ableton's audio engine. Few people doing electronic music (which is what most Live users do) push the limits of the audio quality of any of the DAWs, even everyone's favorite whipping boys Fruity Loops and Reason. Now if you need to record classical music in a great sounding hall with $$$$$$ mikes you should be more picky about your DAW's audio performance.

The reason that ProTools and Cubase/Nuendo have so much of the pro market locked up has to do with things completely unrelated to any drastically superior audio quality and everything to do with who was in the market first and catered to the needs of pro users who could afford the very expensive hardware needed at the time to run the software.

when there is nothing wrong with abletons sound "engine" why is it constantly in discussion than?
And why have so many people the experiance..or had the experiance..that it sounds better to rewire live than mix internal?

I cant talk about the actual versions because i havent tried to mix within live for a longer time...
As actually many do that had issues in the past..
Most people i know use live on stage.. but in the studio as rewire slave..
That is a result from the former inferior audio performance of live..
Even when ableton never admitetd that.. it was a reality for many people..
And this discrepancy between official statements and studio reality gave ableton a pretty bad name when it comes to sound engine questions...

Even rewiring without any external plugs gave better results than just using lives own mixbus...

thats where the mixbus rumors and questions came from..and i wasnt the only one that has experianced it... there was problems and bugs all along..
The use of the crossfader.. there was versions of live where assigning the crossfader effected the soundquality... what was probably a bug.. it disappeared in later version without being noted..

So there is a reason that many lomg time users dont trust the ableton sound engine too much..and maybe havent realized the changes..
changes not heavily promoted.

I think it became better .. but i cant say yet if they are as good as the others now...
I am not in the production state wright now to judge...
thanks to all the crashes of L8.. that really forced me to work on other things like programming patches and modifiing hardware instead mixing and arranging sessions...going back to logic..aso

If ableton has a questionable name regarding soundquality its a result of theier own politics...

They dont get easily rid of that by claiming that they are as good as any other daw... because thats what they were saying all the time... nobody believes them anymore..
Thats really the case.. i dont make that up..as critical i might appear here.. within the berlin electro musican scene i am rather one of the live supporters.. belive it or not..

The majority thinks that the sound quality of ableton live sucks.. they all use it regulary.. but
its a rewire application for them now and will stay up to the moment they learn otherwise...

i lately visited some guys in the studio that was totaly pissed of that the new apc40 they bought dont works in rewire ...

I think ableton is not aware how many users of theire product actually run it in rewire in the studio and just use theire mixbus on stage...
Otherwise they would have allowed theire dedicated controlers to access live in rewire mode...
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JAMM
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by JAMM » Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:38 am

nothing wrong with the quality.

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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Figgy » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:13 am

I'd love to hear someone actually post an A B test, I've heard a lot of claims without ANY proof.

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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by timothyallan » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:19 am

Figgy wrote:I'd love to hear someone actually post an A B test, I've heard a lot of claims without ANY proof.
People have, and of course it always nulls. Then arguments start saying "oh, well if you had done it this way..." or "well, the test is flawed because of x,y,z"

It really never ends.

beatflux
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by beatflux » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:52 am

Most people discussing the issue aren't even touching the boundaries of what Live can do. Even if it was different, it's a minor issue and it's a big waste of time to try and figure it all out. The so called "issue" is the last thing you should be focusing when trying to make quality music.

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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by 3phase » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:48 am

timothyallan wrote:
Figgy wrote:I'd love to hear someone actually post an A B test, I've heard a lot of claims without ANY proof.
People have, and of course it always nulls. Then arguments start saying "oh, well if you had done it this way..." or "well, the test is flawed because of x,y,z"

It really never ends.

you really dont get it..

first..

It allways was a problem that occured in mixes.. for whatever reasons.. so nulling single audio files dont prooves anything.. so aslong no propper tests are done its hard to convince people that gave live the "not good enough for production" mark...

second..

its well possible that progresses in abletons soundengine have changed that allready..
For me the soundquality of live defently has improoved.. i still sometimes get the ableton sound feeling but allmost finished a production in ableton only lately.. just moved because the crashing to protools.. the whole arrangement lost and one day over the deadline allready? i had enough.. what can i say.. the pro tools havent sound worse than the ableton only mix

Anyway.. i still get better results when rewiring live into logic... but its not anymore like in 2002 where rewiring live was like removing a blanket from the speakers...

but still sounds more expesiv when i do it in logic.. but that well can be related to the possebilitys of the plugs.. they sound not as good as waves stuff or so but you can do a lot with logic internal ones.. just the whole bank of different distortions and filters can beef up a thing heavily when you know how to use them... The logic plugs are actually indended to do a whole mix just with them.. and all the syth and sampler plugs.. you get a lot in logic.. buts not pattern based :-(

in reality you have a pretty good set when rewiring live into logic... the ableton scenes and clip playing.. plus the logic plugs + surround + automation and propper midi ... independent from the question wether logic sounds better or not the endresult will sound better.. the space designer alone will take care of that

if only the dedicated ableton controlers would work.. and no fix in sight..





with the amount of hardware related bugs in L8 its probably a bit naiv to think that they can be everywhere except in the audioengine..
I defently had issues with L8 where the warp engine was on in situations where it was supposed to be off..
I actually can trust my ears.. they are pretty trained for quality listening and when they tell me a samplerate conversion is on.. because all the reverb tails are gone and it sounds a litlle grainy.. than the samplerate conversion is on.. forwhatever strange buggy interface interaction whatsoever...

It dont helps your trust when you ve lately run in such situations... it just works is a good joke with L8..
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Pasha » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:56 am

Peter Gabriel guitarist used Ableton Live on tour in the last Latin America 'small clubs' tour
with Gabriel. Google, find the videos. We know how a maniac this guy is about sounds, including some musicians like Tony Levin and others. For me this is the proof that Ableton Live Engine should be trusted.

My2Cents,
- Pasha

PS : Of course my previous post was a joke with the sole intention to say stop to those Audio Engine stuff. Live is gaining momentum and other companies IMHO are doing what's very common in the software industry, which I belong: Bring some magazine expert on the table with some fuss, uncertainties and doubts and that will spread like virus...This does not mean that it's perfect but sure comparable with others and not so bad.
Last edited by Pasha on Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by tlennon » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:05 am

The ubiquitous and never-ending saga of which is better than ..... I certainly wish people would put this debate to rest. FINALLY! :D
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Pasha » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:12 am

tlennon wrote:The ubiquitous and never-ending saga of which is better than ..... I certainly wish people would put this debate to rest. FINALLY! :D
Agree. :D
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by macmurphy » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:27 am

tlennon wrote:The ubiquitous and never-ending saga of which is better than ..... I certainly wish people would put this debate to rest. FINALLY! :D
i also agree.
this is one of the most boring 'debates' ever.

3phase - if you don't like the sound of Live and keep experiencing bugs then don't use it. it's as simple as that.
you've expressed your discontent many times in many threads. i fail to see what you gain from going on and on and on and on and on and on..

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