What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
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leedsquietman
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by leedsquietman » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:06 pm

I don't have an issue with people 'trusting their ears' but when they then go ahead and make generalized blanket statements such as 'x DAW SOUNDS better than y DAW' and can't substantiate it beyond 'I trust my ears', it's a problem, especially when it's influential people who make these statements. More often based on plugins and GUI and other placebo/correctional bias than actual fact. Saying 'I like mixing in Logic because I like it's plugins better' is a whole lot different than saying 'Live sucks for mixing, so I mix in Logic'.

Trust Your Ears and do your own thing by all means in the privacy of your own studio, but be careful about what you say unless you can back it up conclusively, these comments can be quite libellous to the point of character assassination.

Finally, most big studios only use Protools for mixing, with the odd few running Logic or Cubase/Nuendo, so placebo/correctional bias is a huge thing among studio engineers, most of whom have never seen Ableton Live, let alone know how to use it effectively and follow the audio paper set out which tells you how to avoid unnecessary artifacts and get the best from it.

Working on analogue mixing desks is a whole different issue, but yes, it requires a very different approach as 3phase mentions.
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Tone Deft
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:16 pm

leedsquietman wrote:when they then go ahead and make generalized blanket statements such as 'x DAW SOUNDS better than y DAW'
it's the classic n00b post that makes the idiots easier to spot. I've grown to appreciate those posts it clears a lot of things up (*cough*3phase*cough*). anyone that's been around for a while knows it's all bullshit. user error is a MUCH larger factor than DAW error. DAWs are about work flows. for most people we just need a record button, doesn't matter who makes it really.

but yeah, one idiot posts it, two more repeat it, the circle of fail continues. just the other day 3phase asked that if Live sounded like other DAWs then why are people questioning it? classic example of this kind of fuckwittery.
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Isturite-
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Isturite- » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:58 pm

well i'm glad some people here are supporting the fact that ableton can do what people want it to do, because I have been told not to use it by soooo many people, but I like it too much, if I changed it would damage my workflow a LOT
know how to use it effectively and follow the audio paper set out which tells you how to avoid unnecessary artifacts and get the best from it.
Where might I find this "audio paper," to "avoid unnecessary artifacts".... this sounds like my issue! Did I miss something while learning about Live??
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3phase
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by 3phase » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:06 pm

i havent said x sound better as y.. i just sayed i get better results in x... and that too many people in my surroundig claim that x sounds better than y..


you know i am an audio cosultant.. i cant be the only one around that thinks ableton is ok now if that is not a fact, that would damage my reputation as one that allways gives the better advice...

I cant recomend software to people when i cant really state about the pro and cons...
when they diss the sound quality of live ..what happens around any week, i allways say that it has become better.. i cant afford to say its ok now.. as long i am not sure about that...

I actually would like to be able to state ableton an as good audio quality as logic and cubase..

it really just should be a question of workflow.. and not like.. oh my god.. the album sounds like ableton now...

you know.. actually live would be great to compile an album.. but you cant really do that to your masters..or can you?

In the past that was a clear no !! and with a state of L8 wher you cant really know if the samplerate conversion is in or not.. its still a clear no..

would be nice if there would be a status request somewhere.. an info window.
"original sorce samplerate.. sr in hq mode is active now..."

something like a pro feature.. you know.. like real world units in the editor.. ms or samples...

something one can work with
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by 3phase » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:12 pm

Tone Deft wrote:[anyone that's been around for a while knows it's all bullshit.

ah..you remind me mr 20000+ postings... you was around in the early soundquality debates...

you allways said that its perfect when i remember wright..

so ther was no improovements in lives audio quality form lets be fair..L4 to now?


i think the early debate was at least L4 times..if not L3 times..


i think your answer sheds some light on the bullshit..or why the call you tone deff
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by H20nly » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:29 pm

I don't know what you all are debating. There's a Sound Like Pro-Tools option in Live's preferences. It kicks in when you select an Audio Input Device.
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:40 pm

3phase wrote:you allways said that its perfect when i remember wright..
I never said that.

it's ALL flawed, all of it. A/D conversion, D/A conversion, summing busses, pretty much every effect and process you can do with Live, any DAW, tape, monitors, ALL of it is flawed. the key is learning what those flaws are, what they mean and most importantly WHICH ONES MATTER.
so ther was no improovements in lives audio quality form lets be fair..L4 to now?
even the casual Live user can list out improvements and features Ableton have made to Live that have improved the sound.

of all the points in your signal chain, for 99.999% of us the DAW is not the weak point in the signal chain. most of all I'd say mixing/producing skills are where people can make the most improvement. beyond that, monitors, pre-amps and quality tools (hardware or software) are weak points that shoud be addressed before whining about Live or any DAW's sound quality.

hence it's only n00bs or complete fuckwits that start these retarded Live audio quality threads. I can't blame the n00bs, we were all there once. when it comes to the fuckwits that still haven't learned, they can all DIAF.
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evaodland
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THE SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by evaodland » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:48 pm

I put a K&N cold air intake, a 2.68 charger pulley, and 60 lbs. injectors and now the audio quality is absolutely stellar in the 1/4 mile.

suc it. :mrgreen:

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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by H20nly » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:16 pm

Tone Deft wrote:of all the points in your signal chain, for 99.999% of us the DAW is not the weak point in the signal chain. most of all I'd say mixing/producing skills are where people can make the most improvement. beyond that, monitors, pre-amps and quality tools (hardware or software) are weak points that shoud be addressed before whining about Live or any DAW's sound quality.
so what you're saying is that my Soundblaster and M-Audio USB mic with a 30 meter cable could have an effect on audio recorded in Live? 8O but how does this explain how it sounds so much better when I use Logic cuz thats what my friend said and he has used Logic for like 3 and a half years which makes him an expert right?

i think you're wrong because i use all Monster cables.
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

fx23
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by fx23 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:53 pm

Don t keep on fighting a lost battle 3phaze.
It s like truing to argue with some mac fans,
they will always try to prove ya they dont live in an ilocked world
or that flash sucks and is not a lack on ipad..
Ableton made thé phase test with live7, clearly proving
there was problems with previous versions, Robert henke admited
himself he produces on protools, all our respectable
studio friends think as well,but we are just nô ears
bastards, let's say ok...and back to sound.

Live8 is ok now, we all know now user and
hardware has more impact, but that has not
always been the case, might anyone call me a noob..

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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:20 pm

fx23 wrote:Don t keep on fighting a lost battle 3phaze.
It s like truing to argue with some mac fans,
they will always try to prove ya they dont live in an ilocked world
or that flash sucks and is not a lack on ipad..
Ableton made thé phase test with live7, clearly proving
there was problems with previous versions, Robert henke admited
himself he produces on protools, all our respectable
studio friends think as well,but we are just nô ears
bastards, let's say ok...and back to sound.

Live8 is ok now, we all know now user and
hardware has more impact, but that has not
always been the case, might anyone call me a noob..
no, you're a fuckwit. :P

the difference with the summing engine in Live 8 is on the order -90dB or lower difference in sound quality.

now I'll leave you and 3phase to beat your chests on how amazing your productions are and that that much of a difference matters to you.


I'm not familiar with you fx but you do NOT want to associate yourself with 3phase. the guy's explanations of audio are some of the most half baked childish misunderstood rants I've ever read. all he can do with authority is name drop so I give him the benefit of doubt of being around gear. go ahead and search his back posts, his claims are childish at best.
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fx23
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by fx23 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:13 pm

:P don't worry i know a bit ya or hoffman2k(was euklid.Fox) as seems nice
and respectable users, i don't know well 3phaze posts and that might be true.
I just couldn't let him stand alone facing everybody
when parts of what he said were true in thé past for me .
If ya read carefully my posts i totally agrée live8 is totally enough for my ears and production,
i just keep on saying that wasnt the case with ie l5 or 6 wich had an impact
on why ableton was not and Stills now uses on production, because that kept in minds
even if certainly irrelevant today...
Now let's be cool and focus back on sound, we all agree with first
post statement at least...
Last edited by fx23 on Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

memes_33
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by memes_33 » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:33 pm

i recently saw cirque du soleil Beatles "Love" and someone told me they are using ableton live for a lot of audio stuff. if SIR george martin is willing to bounce all of the old 2/4/8-track tapes to pro tools, remix them for the show, and then use ableton to drive the music during the show, i'm thinking the audio quality is probably a'ight.
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Tone Deft
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Tone Deft » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:39 pm

fx23 wrote::P don't worry i know a bit ya or hoffman2k as seems nice
and respectable users, i don't know well 3phaze posts and that might ne true.
I just couldn't let him stand alone facing everybody
when parts of what he said were true in thé past for me .
Now i totally agrée live8 is totally enough for my ears and production,
i just keep on saying that wasnt the case with ie l5 or 6.
Now let's be cool and focus back on sound, we all agrée with first
post statement at least...
:lol:

I'm open to kicking the tires on Live, it's not perfect. when we can find flaws it will only make it better.

3phase is insane but I think he likes it that way. I think he's kinda misunderstood, but there's lots of passion behind his posts, he loves this stuff too. cool for sticking up for him, sometimes I think he'd rather take on a whole room of people on his own, ROOOOAAAAAARRRR!!
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Pitch Black » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:46 pm

Feh... What does Sir George Martin know???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIA_NVFnXZ8

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