What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Discussion of music production, audio, equipment and any related topics, either with or without Ableton Live
Poster
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by Poster » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:19 pm

hoffman2k wrote:an Ableton developer even offered to visit your place to see the bug.
really? :lol: pwned!

3phase
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by 3phase » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:25 pm

hoffman2k wrote: Or can't you find any bugs anymore?

the last time i opened live it crashed on me within 15 minutes.. ..inklusive dataloss of my recording.. a good one !!!
i ve sended in the bugreport and havent it lauched since.. cant afford to loose any recording i do by the worng choice of program

btw.. my atari is now 1 year running c-lab creator.. permanently..
And i just reinstalled my old dd-1000 record on mo disks... with timecode !! not bad.. thats safe..
will arrange the stems either in logic or protools ..

and funny thing.. this old 16 bit machine sounds realy good.. just as it sounded on the speakers.. no tired copy as a playback with live...
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,

H20nly
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by H20nly » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:06 pm

^ probably best that.

i wish i could have it removed from "View Your Posts".
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

thatrobrobinson
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by thatrobrobinson » Wed May 29, 2019 11:29 pm

MAJOR EDIT I LOOK DUMB: It was literally just delay compensation. lol Been out of the game for a hot fkn minute.


I know this is old. I just wanted to put a small response here almost 10 years later.

I'm still using Live 9 btw.

I am ... well was a pro audio engineer working in live sound. I got injured a couple years ago and am just now beginning to rebuild my studio.

Long long long story short...

I have always swore by ableton. I have defended it until the end. I have always said many of the things here in its defense.

All of the arguments for Ableton are valid.


I began rebuilding my studio recently, and wasn't in a position to download ableton over my phone tether. I figured i'd just download Bitwig and use it in demo mode to scratch my production itch and not worry about losing it.

I was finally able to access wifi and download ableton.

Bitwigs demo allowed me still to save all my midi to files and import them into ableton as data. I had saved a couple of them, but some I chose to reproduce as envelopes just were strange between DAWs

I rebuilt my arrangement to spec with similar enough synths and routing to at least save it.

It's saved, its fine. I didn't lose the work overall.

But now I find myself here.

For the first time in my life I am observing that there is something different about the way ableton handles time.

I don't think its the audio engine though.

It seems to be a time problem, that isn't latency related.

It is possible its a setting, or settings I can disable/enable and make my arrangement "feel" like it did in bitwig, but I am just about to begin troubleshooting that.

I always thought certain qualities of my works in ableton were just all on me.

I am for the first time questioning that.

Logic for instance, has a garbage workflow but I get better sounding works out of it. But its not the audio engine there either, I promise. It's not "core audio vs asio either" something is different.

I have had plenty of final products in ableton rival anything in logic or pro tools.

I just do not understand how something made of pure data, with no mixing, mastering, time stretching or anything past simple arrangment can be so drastically different.


When a clip is soloed, It sounds perfect. I add in one more, it sounds fine.

As I begin to add in each clip that I know for a fact is the way it should be - something changes.

Again, its not a latency issue.

The best way I can describe it is it feels as if the software is trying to average the data and outputting what it "believes" the user wants. This type of thing may be very useful for DJ's, but from a production standpoint, this is counter intuitive and it would explain why as I bounce my session clips over to arrangement I would end up having to do extra work to make things flow the way I wanted it to, and also why others would kind of ruffle their brow.

things I have been coerced into producing in logic, did not get the same result. I still hate F** logic.

Abletons implementation of session view was what I personally needed. If I find its just a setting, or if you know there is a setting that could be causing it let me know because Ableton has been my baby for almost a decade now. My experience with Bitwig 2.xx however gave me the playback response of something like Logic, with the workflow of something like Ableton and after just a week of playing with it I will be buying it.

No hate towards ableton here at all - I just would like to know why a simple arrangement of midi loops feels so drastically different between these two DAWs

jlgrimes
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Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

Post by jlgrimes » Thu May 30, 2019 2:58 am

3phase wrote:
Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:40 am
doghouse wrote:There's nothing wrong with Ableton's audio engine. Few people doing electronic music (which is what most Live users do) push the limits of the audio quality of any of the DAWs, even everyone's favorite whipping boys Fruity Loops and Reason. Now if you need to record classical music in a great sounding hall with $$$$$$ mikes you should be more picky about your DAW's audio performance.

The reason that ProTools and Cubase/Nuendo have so much of the pro market locked up has to do with things completely unrelated to any drastically superior audio quality and everything to do with who was in the market first and catered to the needs of pro users who could afford the very expensive hardware needed at the time to run the software.

when there is nothing wrong with abletons sound "engine" why is it constantly in discussion than?
And why have so many people the experiance..or had the experiance..that it sounds better to rewire live than mix internal?

I cant talk about the actual versions because i havent tried to mix within live for a longer time...
As actually many do that had issues in the past..
Most people i know use live on stage.. but in the studio as rewire slave..
That is a result from the former inferior audio performance of live..
Even when ableton never admitetd that.. it was a reality for many people..
And this discrepancy between official statements and studio reality gave ableton a pretty bad name when it comes to sound engine questions...

Even rewiring without any external plugs gave better results than just using lives own mixbus...

thats where the mixbus rumors and questions came from..and i wasnt the only one that has experianced it... there was problems and bugs all along..
The use of the crossfader.. there was versions of live where assigning the crossfader effected the soundquality... what was probably a bug.. it disappeared in later version without being noted..

So there is a reason that many lomg time users dont trust the ableton sound engine too much..and maybe havent realized the changes..
changes not heavily promoted.

I think it became better .. but i cant say yet if they are as good as the others now...
I am not in the production state wright now to judge...
thanks to all the crashes of L8.. that really forced me to work on other things like programming patches and modifiing hardware instead mixing and arranging sessions...going back to logic..aso

If ableton has a questionable name regarding soundquality its a result of theier own politics...

They dont get easily rid of that by claiming that they are as good as any other daw... because thats what they were saying all the time... nobody believes them anymore..
Thats really the case.. i dont make that up..as critical i might appear here.. within the berlin electro musican scene i am rather one of the live supporters.. belive it or not..

The majority thinks that the sound quality of ableton live sucks.. they all use it regulary.. but
its a rewire application for them now and will stay up to the moment they learn otherwise...

i lately visited some guys in the studio that was totaly pissed of that the new apc40 they bought dont works in rewire ...

I think ableton is not aware how many users of theire product actually run it in rewire in the studio and just use theire mixbus on stage...
Otherwise they would have allowed theire dedicated controlers to access live in rewire mode...

Ableton gets a bad rap because of its warping modes. With no warping, Ableton is just as good as anything else.

I've been using Ableton since 2007 and it was mainly lack of features that kept me from mixing on it not sound quality and to be honest, the times I actually did mix on Ableton the mixes came out great.

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