What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...

[dum]

whatever man. as much as i'd like to get into a dick measuring contest with you i've been up all night and am waaaaaaaaaaay too fucking spun to navigate the semantic booby traps you have no doubt lined all of the possible paths of discourse with. i'm glad to hear that you don't actually hear any difference and are just arguing for the sake of it, though. that's good news as far as i'm concerned. i'm ok with weird contrarian assholes, i'm not ok with dumbfucks who actually believe things like "pro tools sounds so much more open and clear than live."

heh, it is precisely because I don't like arguing for the sake of it that I insist on highlighting fallacies where I see them employed.

But ya, I'm definitely not part of the 'ableton doesn't sound as good as XYZ' camp.
For the sake of full disclosure though, I haven't used the other DAWs on the market extensively enough to even have a frame of reference in that regard. My interest in getting logic is for personal workflow (arrangement) enhancements, anything else will be a bonus.

[kb420]

I cant talk about the actual versions because i havent tried to mix within live for a longer time...
As actually many do that had issues in the past..
Most people i know use live on stage.. but in the studio as rewire slave..
That is a result from the former inferior audio performance of live..
Even when ableton never admitetd that.. it was a reality for many people..
And this discrepancy between official statements and studio reality gave ableton a pretty bad name when it comes to sound engine questions...

At first I thought this was just a bunch of crap, but 3phase, I think you may be on to something. I just did something that made me look this thread up again and reread some of it.

I had 14 tracks in another program. Mixed them down, and had effects on each track. No problem. I then Rewired the same song into Live, and I felt like someone let the air out of my tires. The stereo image was gone. The highs were not as crisp. The mid range is muddy, and the vocals actually sound as if they are clipping, but nothing is in the red.

It's late. I'm going to bed, but I'm going to look into this more tomorrow. I think I may have been wrong to clown on this thread.

[milosh]

I cant talk about the actual versions because i havent tried to mix within live for a longer time...
As actually many do that had issues in the past..
Most people i know use live on stage.. but in the studio as rewire slave..
That is a result from the former inferior audio performance of live..
Even when ableton never admitetd that.. it was a reality for many people..
And this discrepancy between official statements and studio reality gave ableton a pretty bad name when it comes to sound engine questions...

At first I thought this was just a bunch of crap, but 3phase, I think you may be on to something. I just did something that made me look this thread up again and reread some of it.

I had 14 tracks in another program. Mixed them down, and had effects on each track. No problem. I then Rewired the same song into Live, and I felt like someone let the air out of my tires. The stereo image was gone. The highs were not as crisp. The mid range is muddy, and the vocals actually sound as if they are clipping, but nothing is in the red.



It's late. I'm going to bed, but I'm going to look into this more tomorrow. I think I may have been wrong to clown on this thread.

Can you upload some mp3 snippets of your mixes inside/outside LIVE?
It would be nice to A/B them.

cheers

milosh

[fishmonkey]

it makes no sense to use MP3 encoded versions for A/B comparisons.

you gotta use WAVs or AIFFs.

even then you have to be extremely anal about levels, sample rate conversion, dithering.

[milosh]

it makes no sense to use MP3 encoded versions for A/B comparisons.

you gotta use WAVs or AIFFs.

even then you have to be extremely anal about levels, sample rate conversion, dithering.

Yeah, that's true.
I was just curious about some A/B tests.
I suppose gain staging in the fx chains makes a HUGE difference.
I personally Love making music and mixing in live it is far more creative than other DAWs.
You guys send your mixed tracks to mastering engineer anyway don't you?

[kb420]

Can you upload some mp3 snippets of your mixes inside/outside LIVE?
It would be nice to A/B them.

cheers

milosh

I plan on doing something like that. I'm still trying to mentally eliminate any factors that lead to the difference in sound quality. They're are a few things that may be the culprit. First of all, it's a demo version of the other software (Record). Another thing is the fact that I had to rewire the master out in order to hear the effect sends. That also eliminated the Master Compressor. Both of those things could have a dramatic effect on the difference in eq, but that shouldn't really effect the stereo image, and it definitely shouldn't make the vocals sound like they are clipping.

What I plan on doing is getting an actual Record license and building a new song completely in it. Once I do, I will bounce it to a .wav file. Then I'll rewire it back into Live audio track by audio track with the master out for the effects sends. Record all of that into Live without modifying anything in Live. Bounce that to audio and do a null test. Theoretically, that should null, but judging from the drastic difference I can hear, I know it won't.

For safe measure, I'll export each track from Record to audio and open them in Live and then bounce that to audio and do a null test. This will tell me if their is simply a problem with Rewire between Live and Record.

I'll also Rewire the song into Sonar to have another host to judge it against.

I'll try to go about this in an analytical way so that I can nail down the problem.

[fishmonkey]

there are lots of reasons why there is a lot of training involved in good experimental design...

compression definitely can effect stereo imaging, and obviously the sound of vocals in a mix.

[Leon Tricker]

This is the last time I try and have a joke on this forum...

Who is more likely to produce a better record?:

1. You, in a state of the art studio with the best set-up known to man.

2. The producer you respect the most using a laptop, Live, and some budget monitor speakers.

You can discuss DAWs, plug-ins, monitors, acoustic treatment, cables, all you like - the biggest variable in any recording set-up is YOU. If you aint got the skills you wont pay the bills etc etc.

[milosh]

Can you upload some mp3 snippets of your mixes inside/outside LIVE?
It would be nice to A/B them.

cheers

milosh

I plan on doing something like that. I'm still trying to mentally eliminate any factors that lead to the difference in sound quality. They're are a few things that may be the culprit. First of all, it's a demo version of the other software (Record). Another thing is the fact that I had to rewire the master out in order to hear the effect sends. That also eliminated the Master Compressor. Both of those things could have a dramatic effect on the difference in eq, but that shouldn't really effect the stereo image, and it definitely shouldn't make the vocals sound like they are clipping.

What I plan on doing is getting an actual Record license and building a new song completely in it. Once I do, I will bounce it to a .wav file. Then I'll rewire it back into Live audio track by audio track with the master out for the effects sends. Record all of that into Live without modifying anything in Live. Bounce that to audio and do a null test. Theoretically, that should null, but judging from the drastic difference I can hear, I know it won't.

For safe measure, I'll export each track from Record to audio and open them in Live and then bounce that to audio and do a null test. This will tell me if their is simply a problem with Rewire between Live and Record.

I'll also Rewire the song into Sonar to have another host to judge it against.

I'll try to go about this in an analytical way so that I can nail down the problem.

When it comes to stereo image You have to check how are the pan rules designed in each DAW - this makes a huge difference between DAWs.
Do you use stereo files on tracks? or do you use mono and use pan knobs?

[dum]

What I plan on doing is getting an actual Record license and building a new song completely in it. Once I do, I will bounce it to a .wav file. Then I'll rewire it back into Live audio track by audio track with the master out for the effects sends. Record all of that into Live without modifying anything in Live. Bounce that to audio and do a null test. Theoretically, that should null, but judging from the drastic difference I can hear, I know it won't.

Well, if I'm not picking you up wrong, you intend to do nothing in live other than record audio via rewire.
That isn't much of a test holmes.

[kb420]

Well, if I'm not picking you up wrong, you intend to do nothing in live other than record audio via rewire.
That isn't much of a test holmes.

You are correct. It isn't. I'm doing this because of the difference in sound quality that I noticed between Rewiring and no Rewiring.

[massenmedium]

What do people think of what Tamtam wrote above? Is that a joke? (No offence Tamtam)

I mean it seems vaguely technically feasible but also more than a little unlikely. A secret watermark subcode in the audio that switches DACs into a high quality mode? Whaat? Nice gag I would say.

..

And @3phase - you know I am aware of real issues to with mixing audio. I posted the solution to the small timing error that occurs when using sends with plugins from 'group' tracks in Live if the Audio From in the 'group' is set to Ext In. When I say that comparing what is going to the DACs in a playback test tells you if that is the same, that's all I mean. I'm not referring to the program in use or including any other factors, just basic digital playback. Hope that makes sense.

[dum]

Well, if I'm not picking you up wrong, you intend to do nothing in live other than record audio via rewire.
That isn't much of a test holmes.

You are correct. It isn't. I'm doing this because of the difference in sound quality that I noticed between Rewiring and no Rewiring.

Well...I suspect user 'error' here.
If simply rewiring audio into live is enough to arse up the quality I'm sure it would be extremely well documented (and fixed) by now...

nevertheless, I'm still interested in your conclusions now that you raise the question

[3phase]

i'm not ok with dumbfucks who actually believe things like "pro tools sounds so much more open and clear than live."

48bit fixed point actually really has advantages over a floating point engine for example the result of applied dither works out mathematically correct what ensures a much higher quality when you have to render down to 16 bit..

therefore you will see very often a protools rig in mastering studios but never ever ableton live and also not really often any other floating point based software...

many experiance the soundquality of a fixed point arithmetic digital mix as better and actually the term more clear, transparent is heard often.. But of cause the experts on this forum here know it better..

There are some interesting articles around that go in depth why the unlimited dynamic range of floating point engines holds dangers for the sound..

i dont know if i recall it wright.. something like that most 32bit float engine have much to high dynamic ranges and therfore a staistical higher error rate on the audiosignal than a 48 bit fixed point with a suitable gainstructure and dynamic range.. so within this limited dynamic range the error rate is less than on 32 bit float..

when i recall the article wright they said e that you would need at least 56float or more to get as good with floating point... or to simulate 48 bit fixed within a floating point engine.. something like that..
no garanty.. just out of memory.. the article was once on the website of RANE which is in my circles considred as a trustworthy company..

i dont know if all this is true.. there are many faulty belives articles regarding audio arround..

But the article matches more with my personal experiance that all theese "one cant hear a difference anyway" statements around..

[hoffman2k]

"I know this and that for a fact, just not sure if its true..."

Paraphrasing is fun!

Honestly, are you even capable of producing 2 audio files that might back up ANY claim you make?
It shouldn't be that hard to actually test, since you got all the expertise required.