What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
-
- Posts: 6708
- Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:18 am
- Location: New Zealand
- Contact:
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
the professional photography forums already figured this one out:
Q: "what's the best camera?"
A: "the one you have with you when the aliens land"
think about it
Q: "what's the best camera?"
A: "the one you have with you when the aliens land"
think about it
-
- Posts: 375
- Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:14 am
- Location: Portsmouth, UK.
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
I can upgrade my laptop, my audio interface, and my monitor speakers.
If only I could upgrade my ears so I can hear what 3phase means about the audio engine!
If only I could upgrade my ears so I can hear what 3phase means about the audio engine!
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
+1tlennon wrote:The ubiquitous and never-ending saga of which is better than ..... I certainly wish people would put this debate to rest. FINALLY!
you start bleeding - I start sceaming
propaganda 1985
propaganda 1985
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
I think 3phase is saying something interesting. I certainly can't conclude that he is wrong. And everyone else is just saying "shut up!", so he is more interesting to me. Personally I also know sound engineers I trust who don't mix in Ableton because of sound quality. Again, Im not saying I agree or disagree. But it seems like a perfectly relevant thing to talk about.
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
But thats all that ever happens. Its talking. While one could perfectly install every major Live version ever made and compare it to any version of any other software ever made. They can even pit Live against an atari in a MIDI test. And where do soundcards usually come into this discussion? A Pro Tools rig with a high-end audio processor sounded better than Live on a RealTek Soundcard? Ehrm Duh..jaaaku wrote:I think 3phase is saying something interesting. I certainly can't conclude that he is wrong. And everyone else is just saying "shut up!", so he is more interesting to me. Personally I also know sound engineers I trust who don't mix in Ableton because of sound quality. Again, Im not saying I agree or disagree. But it seems like a perfectly relevant thing to talk about.
You'd think with all the geniuses arguing against it, we'd have some more conclusive data and tests now than making 2 waveforms who should be technically identical, null with each other.
Isn't there like some consumer comparison test that could clear everything up? Probably not. And even if you find one, people would argue the bias of whomever made the tests.
So what do we end up with: A conversation about what is essentially advanced mathematics, argued by people ranging from bedroom musicians to audio engineers. Its a FOX news panel, thats what it really is. After the break we'll be joined by Trent Reznor and Karl Rove who will discuss the implications that the oil spill in the Gulf has for touring musicians.
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
The issue of "in the box" mixes is really a side issue not the same as "how good is the audio engine".
If you're into serious pro audio you'll know that even in the analog domain mixing has lots of potential pitfalls. There's still lots of controversy about whether or not you need to route DAW tracks to an outboard console for the best sound. Even then, when does it matter...is mixing in Live good enough for a demo, for a TV commercial, for a porno soundtrack, for a 12" dance record, for a podcast, for a major label CD?
There are audible differences between DAWs when mixing in the box. Some have to do with mix bus headroom, some have to do with quality of the EQs, some have to with the algorithms used as you pass through multiple processing stages. Golden-eared pros have been discussing these issues since the earliest days of computer recording.
You can always Rewire or export the tracks and mix in something else if you like. For tracking, I don't think it matters at all what you use...at that point the A/D and D/A stages in your audio interface have far more impact.
If you're into serious pro audio you'll know that even in the analog domain mixing has lots of potential pitfalls. There's still lots of controversy about whether or not you need to route DAW tracks to an outboard console for the best sound. Even then, when does it matter...is mixing in Live good enough for a demo, for a TV commercial, for a porno soundtrack, for a 12" dance record, for a podcast, for a major label CD?
There are audible differences between DAWs when mixing in the box. Some have to do with mix bus headroom, some have to do with quality of the EQs, some have to with the algorithms used as you pass through multiple processing stages. Golden-eared pros have been discussing these issues since the earliest days of computer recording.
You can always Rewire or export the tracks and mix in something else if you like. For tracking, I don't think it matters at all what you use...at that point the A/D and D/A stages in your audio interface have far more impact.
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
thats not true mr hoffiman..
many years ago ableton was denying that there are issues with the soundengine ..ther ewas arguments on the forum..exactly with the same content like now.. just that at this time it was much easier to hear that something is wrong.. however.. it seems that the sound quality has chagend since than,,, ableton still says the same things..its perfect like any other 32 bt float daw... they never stated anything else..they cant state anything else anymore...
so what do we have on pushing on solving the issue? a better sounding DAW?
maybe i should organize a berlin intern testing with some guys that work for music magazins.. just..when ableton fails there with all the "we are perfect, ther is nothing to gain claims" there reputation soundwise is gone forever...
you just dont get the industry leaders to finance such a thing because they have the good sound name allready..so they only can loose... and ableton wont do it because i think they know that they are not there yet...
you know ..theier midi/audio fact sheet reeds similar like behringers claims for superior soundquality by using the best chinese "audio grade " low power low cost op amps... while other could use the same op amps as argument for inferior perfomance...
the bad placement of midi events for example is in the factshet declared as a good performance... thats really a bad joke...
so as long you need such kind of missleading behringer syle promotion you most likely are not on the same level as the competition yet... you know all this funny claims that its better to have midithru with latency instead one with jitter of 5 ms.,..
sorry mam..there is no 5 ms jitter on my logic midi thru. nor is there such a thing on my steinberg midithru..
as any keyborder can confirm...
so in short..what do we get from not letting them get away so easily?
a better program...
many years ago ableton was denying that there are issues with the soundengine ..ther ewas arguments on the forum..exactly with the same content like now.. just that at this time it was much easier to hear that something is wrong.. however.. it seems that the sound quality has chagend since than,,, ableton still says the same things..its perfect like any other 32 bt float daw... they never stated anything else..they cant state anything else anymore...
so what do we have on pushing on solving the issue? a better sounding DAW?
maybe i should organize a berlin intern testing with some guys that work for music magazins.. just..when ableton fails there with all the "we are perfect, ther is nothing to gain claims" there reputation soundwise is gone forever...
you just dont get the industry leaders to finance such a thing because they have the good sound name allready..so they only can loose... and ableton wont do it because i think they know that they are not there yet...
you know ..theier midi/audio fact sheet reeds similar like behringers claims for superior soundquality by using the best chinese "audio grade " low power low cost op amps... while other could use the same op amps as argument for inferior perfomance...
the bad placement of midi events for example is in the factshet declared as a good performance... thats really a bad joke...
so as long you need such kind of missleading behringer syle promotion you most likely are not on the same level as the competition yet... you know all this funny claims that its better to have midithru with latency instead one with jitter of 5 ms.,..
sorry mam..there is no 5 ms jitter on my logic midi thru. nor is there such a thing on my steinberg midithru..
as any keyborder can confirm...
so in short..what do we get from not letting them get away so easily?
a better program...
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,
-
- Posts: 764
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:29 pm
- Location: England
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
Perhaps he just likes the sound of his own voice.macmurphy wrote:tlennon wrote:i fail to see what you gain from going on and on and on and on and on and on..
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
doghouse wrote:The issue of "in the box" mixes is really a side issue not the same as "how good is the audio engine".
You can always Rewire or export the tracks and mix in something else if you like. For tracking, I don't think it matters at all what you use...at that point the A/D and D/A stages in your audio interface have far more impact.
true..
but the term audio engine includes a lot more than just the 32bit float principle..gainstaging, dithering, dezipperimg of automation data is integral part of the audio engine of a daw..
and i go even further.. DAW.. the big word names the software you do a complete production in without the aid of add ons ..
beside that things like an own audio editor belong in any DAW you also can see the quality of the plug in set as part of that... however..abletons compressor and eq8 are pretty good and can compete with the others. at least on 96 k...
i think an oversampling function wouldnt hurt...
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
But you don't have to take anybodies word for it. And you wont anyway. You can prove the differences between Live versions by just installing them and running tests. But you wont anyway.3phase wrote:thats not true mr hoffiman..
many years ago ableton was denying that there are issues with the soundengine ..ther ewas arguments on the forum..exactly with the same content like now.. just that at this time it was much easier to hear that something is wrong.. however.. it seems that the sound quality has chagend since than,,, ableton still says the same things..its perfect like any other 32 bt float daw... they never stated anything else..they cant state anything else anymore...
Show me one thread where a VST developer explains why their plugins sound different after Live got upgraded. It should be a relevant read.
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
hoffman2k wrote:But you don't have to take anybodies word for it. And you wont anyway. You can prove the differences between Live versions by just installing them and running tests. But you wont anyway.3phase wrote:thats not true mr hoffiman..
many years ago ableton was denying that there are issues with the soundengine ..ther ewas arguments on the forum..exactly with the same content like now.. just that at this time it was much easier to hear that something is wrong.. however.. it seems that the sound quality has chagend since than,,, ableton still says the same things..its perfect like any other 32 bt float daw... they never stated anything else..they cant state anything else anymore...
Show me one thread where a VST developer explains why their plugins sound different after Live got upgraded. It should be a relevant read.
you say there are no differences between live versions?
Than its still so inferior in relation to the others and one only got used to it?
The mean doing of mp3? our eardrums got perforated and the brain sensoric reformated?
That is sad news.. i sell my telefunken pre´s... aslong i still get money for them....
mac book 2,16 ghz 4(3)gb ram, Os 10.62, fireface 400,
-
- Posts: 6659
- Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:56 am
- Location: greater toronto area
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
Most studio engineers don't know enough about Live to pass judgement and many are so scared to veer from Protools that they never consider anything but rewiring or exporting audio anyway. Many are also lazy and admit they have no inclination to learn anything other than Protools, having to learn Logic or Nuendo usually kicks up a shitstorm among the engineer's union, let alone Ableton Live. I know some engineers who admit to me they just whine about other sequencers because they don't want to have to spend money on courses to learn them. Bias and rumour help keep Protools as the top sequencer in most pro studios. Several top engineers and mixers refuse to work in anything else and require the studio gophers to render files and MIDI from other sequencers and line it all up in PT when work comes in from Logic and other sequencers.
Like the vuvuzelas at the world cup, these threads have become a constant whine. They aren't helpful anymore either - 3phase will never get the martyrdom he seeks and will go the way of Timur if he keeps repeating the same copied and pasted essay papers, almost all of which are based on his personal opinions and with very little substance to support it.
The easiest thing and something which saves a lot of hot air and wasted time would be for those who continually bash Live's sound to either learn how to use it properly, or use something else and get on with making music to their taste. In short form - STFU.
Like the vuvuzelas at the world cup, these threads have become a constant whine. They aren't helpful anymore either - 3phase will never get the martyrdom he seeks and will go the way of Timur if he keeps repeating the same copied and pasted essay papers, almost all of which are based on his personal opinions and with very little substance to support it.
The easiest thing and something which saves a lot of hot air and wasted time would be for those who continually bash Live's sound to either learn how to use it properly, or use something else and get on with making music to their taste. In short form - STFU.
http://soundcloud.com/umbriel-rising http://www.myspace.com/leedsquietmandemos Live 7.0.18 SUITE, Cubase 5.5.2], Soundforge 9, Dell XPS M1530, 2.2 Ghz C2D, 4GB, Vista Ult SP2, legit plugins a plenty, Alesis IO14.
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
I too remember the times when not summing in Live resulted in instant sonic improvement.. But does it still exist?
hmm.. hard to say. I still use multiouts and my soundcard's internal summing engine for bouncing "critical" stuff, but it's just a habit. Haven't A/B-tested with the current live version. Also a bit difficult to A/B because my soundcards internal summing engine seems to have more headroom than live's masterbus (?)
Why use Rewire BTW? Lot less hassle to sum with the soundcard - no controller problems either.
At the end of the day, I get by with the present state of affairs. It's my EQ:ing and mixing skills that are to blaim if/when my mixes are off, not live. If any berlin elektro geezer tries to say different I could personally care less (all the scenes are jus' to full of 1hit-wonder-professional-presetsurfers IMHO)
( Academically speaking, I'd prefer a > 48-bit fixed point summing bus over to float summing (my techno-pagan soul tells me floats are inferior to ints as ints were born first to this world), but can't give any tangible proof on why.. and anyway, I never talk this stuff on the internet anymore.. you all know why! there's no point :p )
hmm.. hard to say. I still use multiouts and my soundcard's internal summing engine for bouncing "critical" stuff, but it's just a habit. Haven't A/B-tested with the current live version. Also a bit difficult to A/B because my soundcards internal summing engine seems to have more headroom than live's masterbus (?)
Why use Rewire BTW? Lot less hassle to sum with the soundcard - no controller problems either.
At the end of the day, I get by with the present state of affairs. It's my EQ:ing and mixing skills that are to blaim if/when my mixes are off, not live. If any berlin elektro geezer tries to say different I could personally care less (all the scenes are jus' to full of 1hit-wonder-professional-presetsurfers IMHO)
( Academically speaking, I'd prefer a > 48-bit fixed point summing bus over to float summing (my techno-pagan soul tells me floats are inferior to ints as ints were born first to this world), but can't give any tangible proof on why.. and anyway, I never talk this stuff on the internet anymore.. you all know why! there's no point :p )
Last edited by djwack on Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
Nope, I didn't say that all. I said you can prove the differences between Live versions.3phase wrote:hoffman2k wrote:But you don't have to take anybodies word for it. And you wont anyway. You can prove the differences between Live versions by just installing them and running tests. But you wont anyway.3phase wrote:thats not true mr hoffiman..
many years ago ableton was denying that there are issues with the soundengine ..ther ewas arguments on the forum..exactly with the same content like now.. just that at this time it was much easier to hear that something is wrong.. however.. it seems that the sound quality has chagend since than,,, ableton still says the same things..its perfect like any other 32 bt float daw... they never stated anything else..they cant state anything else anymore...
Show me one thread where a VST developer explains why their plugins sound different after Live got upgraded. It should be a relevant read.
you say there are no differences between live versions?
I also said earlier that you'll need a mathematician to explain the results.
The differences are there and will continue to be there forever. Live 3 didn't magically get better or worse when Live 8 got released.
Re: What Ableton IS KEEPING SECRET about Live's audio engine...
Many people asking for better quality, still mixing their tracks with cheap pc speakers in untreated rooms, with integrated soundcards working at 44100 sample rate, squashing everything into a limiter.
Today it's not necessary to spend many thousand of euros to get good results. Get a cheap soundcard working at least at 48 khz, a cheap pair of monitors and place them decently in your room. If you can afford it, do a bit of acoustic treatment, and stop killing the dynamic range. It will cost you a lot less than PRO Tools systems, fancy analog mixers or mastering's sessions at "full-valve-old-skool-analog" facilities, and you'll forget most quality problems. And I'm not talking about Live only, the same is true for Sonar, FruityLoops, Cubase or everything else. I bet the reason which keeps many far away from a Grammy it's not an Audio Engine.
Personally I find Live one of the most transparent tools I ever used. Totally transparent? It's transparent enough for me to make my tracks sound good as (or even better than) "pros' tunes".
(And no, esotic dithers or compressors can't turn a BAD tune into a GOOD one.)
Today it's not necessary to spend many thousand of euros to get good results. Get a cheap soundcard working at least at 48 khz, a cheap pair of monitors and place them decently in your room. If you can afford it, do a bit of acoustic treatment, and stop killing the dynamic range. It will cost you a lot less than PRO Tools systems, fancy analog mixers or mastering's sessions at "full-valve-old-skool-analog" facilities, and you'll forget most quality problems. And I'm not talking about Live only, the same is true for Sonar, FruityLoops, Cubase or everything else. I bet the reason which keeps many far away from a Grammy it's not an Audio Engine.
Personally I find Live one of the most transparent tools I ever used. Totally transparent? It's transparent enough for me to make my tracks sound good as (or even better than) "pros' tunes".
(And no, esotic dithers or compressors can't turn a BAD tune into a GOOD one.)
Funky vibes from Berlin.
Check my music.
Check my music.